IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Islam for non-Muslims
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Tolerance  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Tolerance

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 7>
Author
Message
Epsilon View Drop Down
Starter
Starter

Male
Joined: 16 June 2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epsilon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tolerance
    Posted: 16 June 2009 at 11:43pm
Dear Forum members,
                                       This is my first outing on this forum. I am now retired and now have the time to try and understand matters that previously I had no time to pursue. My personal experiences of religion from childhood on have been very negative. As a consequence, after long and intense deliberations, I came to the conclusion that all religion is man-made and that I would seek truth rather than God. I am not intending to be confronting, just being open about my own beliefs.

I am very concerned about the future of the world if mankind cannot find a way for Muslims to be at peace with the rest of humanity. I have read the Quran, and other books about the history of Islam. As an unbeliever in any gods, I find that there are growing numbers of people like me who are more tolerant of others than people from any religion. I do not want to harm, insult, or make war on anyone; and I try to make the world a better place for all.

I am therefore made uneasy by all the vilification that the Quran heaps on unbelievers. I have many other misgivings about what the Quran prescribes, but the question of most concern to me is whether it is at all possible that Islam can co-exist with unbelievers, and acknowledge their right to unbelief. We are not a religion that threatens anyone on behalf of any god, we only want peace and to be allowed to live by the golden rule that predates all religions.
Back to Top
Chrysalis View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 November 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2033
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2009 at 6:16am
Originally posted by Epsilon Epsilon wrote:

Dear Forum members,
                                       This is my first outing on this forum. I am now retired and now have the time to try and understand matters that previously I had no time to pursue.
 
Hello Epsilon,
 
Welcome to the forums, there are some really nice people here, muslims nonmuslims alike. . . Nice to see you here. Hope you have a pleasant stay, and are an active member. . .looking forward to your participation here. 
 
Quote
question of most concern to me is whether it is at all possible that Islam can co-exist with unbelievers, and acknowledge their right to unbelief.
 
Then you need not be concerned at all. I would reccommend you read about Islamic history, back when Muslims were the superpower  - and how they coexisted peacefully with the peace-abiding nonmuslims. The Muslim society is one that revolves around preserving the family unit, and working for the collective benefit of the society - not eliminating non-muslims around the world. Smile
 
Even if we take a look at the non-muslims' worst fear i.e. Islamic Shariah - nonmuslims are treated very tolerantly and thier rights are protected.
Under Shariah, nonmuslims have a right to practise thier religion (or lack of) freely, build thier places of worship, live thier life according to thier religious (or lack of) principles etc. Non-Muslims dont even have to follow the laws which are set for Muslims. . . i.e. all the prohibitions and limitations that exist for Muslims within Shariah, are not applicable to Non-Muslims at all, and cannot be forced on them (drinking alcohol, eating pork, dress code, marriage laws etc). They cannot be discriminated against and have equal rights as a Muslim (except that they cannot preach thier religion to Muslims - thats about the only difference I can think of).
 
So Islam is perfectly tolerant towards Non-Muslims and does not enforce itself on them. The Qur'an says 'Let there be no compulsion in religion'. You need not fear.
 
 
 
See you around on the forums. Smile
 
 
 
 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
Back to Top
honeto View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male Islam
Joined: 20 March 2008
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2487
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2009 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by Epsilon Epsilon wrote:

Dear Forum members,
                                       This is my first outing on this forum. I am now retired and now have the time to try and understand matters that previously I had no time to pursue. My personal experiences of religion from childhood on have been very negative. As a consequence, after long and intense deliberations, I came to the conclusion that all religion is man-made and that I would seek truth rather than God. I am not intending to be confronting, just being open about my own beliefs.

I am very concerned about the future of the world if mankind cannot find a way for Muslims to be at peace with the rest of humanity. I have read the Quran, and other books about the history of Islam. As an unbeliever in any gods, I find that there are growing numbers of people like me who are more tolerant of others than people from any religion. I do not want to harm, insult, or make war on anyone; and I try to make the world a better place for all.

I am therefore made uneasy by all the vilification that the Quran heaps on unbelievers. I have many other misgivings about what the Quran prescribes, but the question of most concern to me is whether it is at all possible that Islam can co-exist with unbelievers, and acknowledge their right to unbelief. We are not a religion that threatens anyone on behalf of any god, we only want peace and to be allowed to live by the golden rule that predates all religions.
 
Dear Epsilon,
welcome to the forum and I hope you get your answers  as there are many learned people here on this forum that have good explaination and answers to satisfy your desire for knowlege about Islam.
I have also read Quran, and I can tell you that God does not teach us to force our belief on others. We are to only convey God's messege to others as part of our obligation but in the most honorable ways.
And after that we are told to leave it upto that person what they do with it, and what judgement awaits for him/her when accountability day arrives.
Each one of us will answer for only ourselves for what we intented, and did, none will be wronged to the smallest measure.
The One who knows all, the One who creates and provides for what we can see and what we are unable to see will show us the truth of all what we did, agaisnt us and for us both.
Because we may do so many things wrong knowingly and unknowingly, our only safty net is to aknowledge us being created and God as our Creator. Seek and follow His guidence and forgiveness. 
 
I am curious to know about your statment: "we only want peace and to be allowed to live by the golden rule that predates all religions" Do you believe there was a period without religion? Because Islamic teachings, through Quran tell us that the first man, Adam, knew his maker. He acknowldge, and worshiped his maker, God Almighty. Adam submitted to the will of God, and was a Muslim.
Hasan
 
 


Edited by honeto - 23 June 2009 at 5:46pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Back to Top
Natassia View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 16 July 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 177
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Natassia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2009 at 11:57am
Originally posted by Epsilon Epsilon wrote:


I am therefore made uneasy by all the vilification that the Quran heaps on unbelievers. I have many other misgivings about what the Quran prescribes, but the question of most concern to me is whether it is at all possible that Islam can co-exist with unbelievers, and acknowledge their right to unbelief. We are not a religion that threatens anyone on behalf of any god, we only want peace and to be allowed to live by the golden rule that predates all religions.
 
I am made uneasy by these verses as well:
 
8:22
 
8:55
 
9:5
 
9:28-30
 
98:6
 
I always wondered how Muslims reconciled the verse about no compulsion in religion with the verses that speak about fighting people until they become Muslims as well as reconciling them with the Hadiths that describe forced conversion.  That's why I decided to research the context of the "no compulsion" verse as well as the concept of abrogation.
 
From the Tafsir Ibn Kathir (found at www.tafsir.com):
 
[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.
 
Allah said, There is no compulsion in religion, meaning, "Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam.''

It was reported that the Ansar were the reason behind revealing this Ayah, although its indication is general in meaning. Ibn Jarir recorded that Ibn `Abbas said [that before Islam], "When (an Ansar) woman would not bear children who would live, she would vow that if she gives birth to a child who remains alive, she would raise him as a Jew. When Banu An-Nadir (the Jewish tribe) were evacuated [from Al-Madinah], some of the children of the Ansar were being raised among them, and the Ansar said, `We will not abandon our children.' Allah revealed, There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path.'' Abu Dawud and An-Nasa'i also recorded this Hadith.

As for the Hadith that Imam Ahmad recorded, in which Anas said that the Messenger of Allah said to a man,"Embrace Islam.'' The man said, "I dislike it.'' The Prophet said, "Even if you dislike it.''

First, this is an authentic Hadith, with only three narrators between Imam Ahmad and the Prophet . However, it is not relevant to the subject under discussion, for the Prophet did not force that man to become Muslim. The Prophet merely invited this man to become Muslim, and he replied that he does not find himself eager to become Muslim. The Prophet said to the man that even though he dislikes embracing Islam, he should still embrace it, `for Allah will grant you sincerity and true intent.'

From the Tafsir Ibn Kathir (found at www.tafsir.com):
 
[2:106] Whatever a verse (revelation) do Nansakh (We abrogate) or Nunsiha (cause to be forgotten), We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is Able to do all things
 
To read about the meaning of nanskh: http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=2938
 
Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 33:

It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

See these additional hadith:
 
Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4294
Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4366
Sahih Muslim, Book 31, Number 5917
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 643
 
Also, read the story about Abu Sufyan's forced conversion in Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasoul Allah.
Back to Top
honeto View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male Islam
Joined: 20 March 2008
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2487
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2009 at 4:46pm
Natassia,
I see you are taking up a lot of issue at once, not that I have a problem with that but only that it does not help rather confuse yourself probably and make us wander going in every direction without any purspose.
Why don't you start with one problem you are having and we go after that then next.
I find it quite interesting that in another post you mentioned to have only gone through 2nd and 4the Sura before closing the Quran, while your above post suggest that either you have reopened the Quran (good for you) or you are following leads from someone. Whatever be the case I take your concerns seriously.
Let me address of what you have of the Quran made you uneasy.
I  understand, sometimes a little bit help is needed to make sense of things that seem to be locked for some of us.
8:22 and 8:55 both say nothing different or strange, unless you live in a closet.
You reject God, you will be rejected. You reject the authority of Law of the USA, you will condemned and punished. You reject and deny your maker and His bounties He bestowed upon you, what else should be your fate?
That's what is called justice. Those who acknowledge, thank, and praise their maker must be better in the sight of a just Maker, why not.
I don't think Matthew 23:33 says anything different:
"you snakes, you brood of vipers, how will you escape being condemned to hell." I don't see you having a problem with that in your post?
or Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, teachers of law and pharisees, you hypocrites...a son of hell as you are."
I want you  to address these two first and get done first before we ake the others.
 
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 05 August 2009 at 4:47pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Back to Top
Natassia View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 16 July 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 177
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Natassia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2009 at 6:40pm
@ honeto

You wrote: I see you are taking up a lot of issue at once, not that I have a problem with that but only that it does not help rather confuse yourself probably and make us wander going in every direction without any purspose.

I'm a multi-tasker when it comes to thinking. Sorry.

You wrote: Why don't you start with one problem you are having and we go after that then next.

I have a problem with forced conversion and forced submission and being devalued as a human.

You wrote: I find it quite interesting that in another post you mentioned to have only gone through 2nd and 4the Sura before closing the Quran, while your above post suggest that either you have reopened the Quran (good for you) or you are following leads from someone. Whatever be the case I take your concerns seriously.

I didn't say that I didn't finish the Quran. I said I had a hard time even getting through the first 4 Surahs. It was in Surah 4 that I realized the Quran was not from the God I know.

You wrote: Let me address of what you have of the Quran made you uneasy.

I understand, sometimes a little bit help is needed to make sense of things that seem to be locked for some of us.

8:22 and 8:55 both say nothing different or strange, unless you live in a closet.

You reject God, you will be rejected. You reject the authority of Law of the USA, you will condemned and punished. You reject and deny your maker and His bounties He bestowed upon you, what else should be your fate?

I don't have a problem with God rejecting me if I reject Him. That's not the problem here. What Allah says is that disbelievers are the WORST OF BEASTS (some translations: VILEST OF ANIMALS). At that point we disbelievers become less valuable than a pig.

You wrote: That's what is called justice. Those who acknowledge, thank, and praise their maker must be better in the sight of a just Maker, why not.

I don't think Matthew 23:33 says anything different:

"you snakes, you brood of vipers, how will you escape being condemned to hell." I don't see you having a problem with that in your post?

or Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, teachers of law and pharisees, you hypocrites...a son of hell as you are."

I want you to address these two first and get done first before we ake the others.

Jesus was talking to a very specific group of people in Matthew 23. He was not talking to disbelievers in general. He was talking to the Pharisees and teachers of the law who sit in the seat of Moses and oppress the people with their religious traditions. He was talking about hypocritical people who lead their followers astray. He was not talking about people rejecting him or his message.

But, it shouldn't matter what the Bible says since the Bible is a "corrupted book" and the Quran has completely abrogated it. This topic is not supposed to be about Jesus, Christianity, or the Bible. This topic is supposed to be about tolerance in Islam.

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
Back to Top
honeto View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male Islam
Joined: 20 March 2008
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2487
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2009 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by Natassia Natassia wrote:

@ honeto

You wrote: I see you are taking up a lot of issue at once, not that I have a problem with that but only that it does not help rather confuse yourself probably and make us wander going in every direction without any purspose.

I'm a multi-tasker when it comes to thinking. Sorry.

You wrote: Why don't you start with one problem you are having and we go after that then next.

I have a problem with forced conversion and forced submission and being devalued as a human.

You wrote: I find it quite interesting that in another post you mentioned to have only gone through 2nd and 4the Sura before closing the Quran, while your above post suggest that either you have reopened the Quran (good for you) or you are following leads from someone. Whatever be the case I take your concerns seriously.

I didn't say that I didn't finish the Quran. I said I had a hard time even getting through the first 4 Surahs. It was in Surah 4 that I realized the Quran was not from the God I know.

You wrote: Let me address of what you have of the Quran made you uneasy.

I understand, sometimes a little bit help is needed to make sense of things that seem to be locked for some of us.

8:22 and 8:55 both say nothing different or strange, unless you live in a closet.

You reject God, you will be rejected. You reject the authority of Law of the USA, you will condemned and punished. You reject and deny your maker and His bounties He bestowed upon you, what else should be your fate?

I don't have a problem with God rejecting me if I reject Him. That's not the problem here. What Allah says is that disbelievers are the WORST OF BEASTS (some translations: VILEST OF ANIMALS). At that point we disbelievers become less valuable than a pig.

You wrote: That's what is called justice. Those who acknowledge, thank, and praise their maker must be better in the sight of a just Maker, why not.

I don't think Matthew 23:33 says anything different:

"you snakes, you brood of vipers, how will you escape being condemned to hell." I don't see you having a problem with that in your post?

or Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, teachers of law and pharisees, you hypocrites...a son of hell as you are."

I want you to address these two first and get done first before we ake the others.

Jesus was talking to a very specific group of people in Matthew 23. He was not talking to disbelievers in general. He was talking to the Pharisees and teachers of the law who sit in the seat of Moses and oppress the people with their religious traditions. He was talking about hypocritical people who lead their followers astray. He was not talking about people rejecting him or his message.

But, it shouldn't matter what the Bible says since the Bible is a "corrupted book" and the Quran has completely abrogated it. This topic is not supposed to be about Jesus, Christianity, or the Bible. This topic is supposed to be about tolerance in Islam.

 
Natassia,
good to hear from you again.
Its good to be multi tasker as you mentioend you are. What I meant was let's have one issue cleared first before getting into another or else it's a never ending deal and serves purpose other than learning. 
 
You mentioned your problem about forced conversions, I am with you on that. I ,as the Quran says, believe in no compulsion in religion. If any believe in God and follow His command does it for their own good. If anyone is forced to believe, I believe God will serve them justice in the End. I have seen (first hand) many Christians converting or we call it reverting to Islam in my life here in US and Mexico with willful submission to their Creator.
It is happening everyday despite the myths against Islam.  
 
God refering those who reject Him, as their rightful God, as worst of creatures?
well, aren't they just that when they will be rejected and thrown into the fire. I don't think animals will face that fate, since they will not be judged. Thus if even animals will not be in hell with them, they will probably wish to have been animals on earth, so they would not end up in hell at least. From that perspective, yes I can see why God has addressed them as such that after giving them with best of ablity and providing them with guidence, if one still choose to make a bad choice, what else will you call them. Don't you hear here in the West some men refered as pigs for their behavior? You think we have  right on vocabulary and our maker God does not?
Also, either you are not fimiliar with your own book, you profess to believe in it? Let me show you what I mean, and its just to show you how different opinion you have of the other. For me the above explaination is sufficient.
 
Let us look into Matthew 3:7
 " But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: " you brood of vipers! who warned you to flee from the coming wrath." 
 
Let us look another one:
 
Matthew 23:33
" you snakes, you broad of vipers! how will you escape the condemnation to hell....."
 
Here is another:
 
Jude 1:10 "yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals, these are the very things that destroy them."
 
Remember, tolerance is for us toward each other, but for God, if one who is granted all the faculties, to reject them is not a question of tolerance. Such a person simply makes his/her choice to ignore/reject it to his own dome. God has said to have forgiveness for those who seek it, but the one that thinks as self sufficient and to not turn toward Him in submission and rejects his Creator will only see a fate he/she intentionally chose, and they are not going to like it.
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 12 August 2009 at 2:58pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Back to Top
Natassia View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 16 July 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 177
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Natassia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2009 at 8:41pm
@ honeto / Hasan

Jesus was not calling people animals because of their disbelief. Because of their behaviors, they were like pits of vipers. Have you read the entire passage to keep things in context?

And in Jude, it was comparing their way of thinking and abusing to be like unreasoning animals. Jude didn't say they WERE animals, let alone the VILEST of animals. And if you read the whole passage, these were immoral people who abused their own bodies and slandered God and celestial beings.

But according to the Quran, simply because I do not believe in Muhammad that makes me a disbeliever and therefore the worst of beasts. It has nothing to do with my behavior or love for God. It has to do with believing in Muhammad. I'm sorry, but that is rather bizarre to me.

Besides, according to the New Testament, there is no vile or unclean animal (ie pig) or human (ie Gentile)...so I cannot be lowered to the level of a pig or worse since all animals are equal, and in Christ all people are equal.

You said there is no forced conversion in Islam. But I must object to that statement. There seems to be plenty of examples of forced conversion/submission:

Quran 9:5

Quran 9:29

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 643

Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Numbers 29-35

Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4294

Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4366

Sahih Muslim, Book 31, Number 5917

Sahih Muslim, Book 31, Number 5918

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 7>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.