Trying to Right Ishmael

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   Trying to Right Ishmael

There are profound differences between the Muslim and Jewish tales of Hagar and Ishmael.  For example, in the Muslim account, Hagar is sent away when Ishmael is still a babe nursing at her breast.  However, the Jewish version delays Hagar�s sending away until Ishmael is about 18 years old.  Therefore, I began to investigate the Jewish version, recorded in Genesis 16-25, to see what it would take to align the Jewish version with the Muslim, in order to see for myself just exactly how different the two stories truly are.

I quickly identified some very troubling inconsistencies with the Jewish version.  For example, although the description of the sending away of Hagar and Ishmael in the Jewish version (Gen 21:9-20b), taken by itself, closely matches the Muslim version, as we mentioned above the context in which the Jewish tale is set is very different from the context of the Muslim account.  As we said, the Muslim version has Hagar fleeing with Ishmael as a nursing babe.  But in the Jewish account, Hagar is not driven away until after Isaac is born (Gen 21:2) and weened (Gen 21:8) which typically happens about the age of 4.  Thus, Ishmael is about 18 years of age � to wit, a fully grown adult male Bedouin.  But even in the Jewish account, Abraham puts the boy Ishmael on Hagar�s shoulders (Gen 21:14), and Hagar puts the boy under a bush (Gen 21:15).  Hagar is probably about 40 years old at this point in the Jewish arrangement: Abraham goes to Egypt where Sarah picks up Hagar (Gen 12:10-20), Abraham comes out and lives in Canaan for 10 years before Hagar gives birth (Gen 16:3), and then Ishmael grows to age 18, so if Hagar was 10-12 years old when Sarah took her as her handmaiden, then 28 years later makes Hagar about 40.  Moreover, Hagar could not have given birth before about age 13, meaning Hagar must be at least 30.  So, we have a 30-40 year old woman giving a piggy-back ride to a fully grown adult Bedouin, one afterwards known as a mighty archer no less, and then just sticking him under a bush or fir tree.  Then, our 18 year old Ishmael cries, and it drives his mother Hagar to distraction, and Almighty God hears his cries.  Now, would an 18 year old adult male Bedouin soon-to-be archer whimper before his mother, even if he was really hungry or thirsty?  To be blunt, an 18 year old man could probably withstand hardship and privation better than a 40 year old woman, and you�d think if one is caring for the other, it would be Ishmael caring for his own mother Hagar.  And even if Ishmael fell ill, you would think that a fully grown adult man would put on a stronger show than crying �like a baby�.

But we note that viewing the story of Hagar�s Expulsion (Gen 21:9-20b) in the light of the Muslim traditions immediately makes these unseemly details make perfect sense � Hagar is a new mother, nursing her first and only child on her breast, and Hagar�s distress is the frantic torment of a new mother watching her own child suffer in the Sun�s burning heat!  So, we begin to wonder if the tale of Hagar�s expulsion has been moved from its original location.  Indeed, this seems far more probable than the reverse, namely that the Muslims have rearranged their tale of Hagar�s expulsion, because if that were the case, there would be unseemly details in the Muslim account, arising from the fact that Ishmael was really 18 years old, whereas what we see are unseemly details in the Jewish account consistent with Ishmael being a nursing babe.

Another jarring element of the Jewish arrangement of the Hagar and Ishmael stories is the conspicuous 13 year gap between the birth of Ishmael (Gen 16:15) and the Covenant of Circumcision (Gen 17) placed immediately afterwards.  In short, Ishmael is born, then we fast forward 13 years to more important things, and then Ishmael at 13 is circumcised.  Now, to this we must add the fact that Muslim tradition holds that in this 13 year period, so summarily skipped over in the Jewish account, Ishmael (not Isaac as in Genesis ) is spared from sacrifice.  Right or wrong, the Muslim account is again very different from the Jewish account in this important facet of the story.  The Muslims say Ishmael was spared sacrifice when he was about 7 years old � but the Jewish tale attributes the Aborted Sacrifice to Isaac when he was about 7 years old.  When Isaac was 7, Ishmael was 21, so whereas the expulsion of Hagar and Ishmael is delayed by 18 years in the Jewish version, the Aborted Sacrifice is delayed by 14 years.  Whichever tale is true, these clear and unambiguous differences cannot be overlooked.  In the case of Hagar�s Expulsion, conspicuous details in the narrative seem to favor the Muslim timing.  Do we see similar conspicuous details in the Sacrifice account that could help us properly date that story element?

First of all, in the account, the son who is spared is called Abraham�s �only son� (Gen 22:2, 12, 15).  Biologically, only Ishmael was ever Abraham�s �only son�.  To my knowledge, Jewish scholars do, in point of fact, claim that the words �only son� show Abraham�s full rejection and disowning of Ishmael, we leaves Isaac as Abraham�s �only [Legal] son�.  But there are three problems with this interpretation.  First, it is unambiguous that interpreting the plain text, which clearly reads �only son�, as actually meaning �only [Legal] son� requires an Allegorical Interpretation of the text, which overlays non-textual traditions over the plain text itself.  Next, even in the Jewish account, both Ishmael and Isaac come together to bury their father (Gen 25:9).  It is not possible that a fully rejected and disowned son would be allowed to bury his non-Father.  Thus again, just as unseemly details arose from the Jewish placement of Hagar�s Expulsion in the Jewish narrative, here too we see unseemly details arise from the Jewish placement (along with the Jewish allegorical interpretations) of the Aborted Sacrifice.  And third, after Abraham�s �only son� is spared by Almighty God through His Angel, Abraham goes to Beersheba (Gen 22:19).  But Beersheba is exactly the place where even the Jewish account acknowledges Hagar and Ishmael settled (Gen 21:14).  Thus, if we briefly allow ourselves to consider that the Jewish tale needs rearrangement, these unseemly details are immediately rectified � of course Abraham returns to Beersheba (with Ishmael), for he has presumably been visiting Hagar, from whom he took Ishmael in the first place, and now Abraham comes back to Hagar bringing her son Ishmael with him.  Once again, there are unseemly details in the Jewish arrangement which vanish when the individual story blocks are rearranged in alignment with Muslim traditions.

What happens if we, purely as an experiment, briefly allow ourselves to rearrange the individual story blocks in Genesis 16-26 to try to see if we can make them agree with the Muslim arrangement.  Is that even possible?

If we attribute the Aborted Sacrifice to Ishmael and put it back in, when Ishmael is 7 by tradition, and we put Sarah�s driving away of Hagar right after Ishmael�s birth, a pattern emerges: Abraham is visiting his son Ishmael roughly every 7 years, for Abraham visits Hagar and Ishmael when his �only son� is spared sacrifice (age 7), and Abraham must go back to Hagar and Ishmael to include his son in his Covenant of Circumcision (age 13).  And interestingly, Muslim tradition also has Abraham visiting Ishmael about every 7 years from Ishmael�s marriage to his 1^st wife forward.  So, interestingly, rearranging the Jewish tale to force it inline with Muslim accounts actually produces a very slick and streamlined picture:

Hagar gets pregnant (Gen 16:4)
Sarah is jealous, and drives Hagar away while she is pregnant (Gen 16:5-6)
Hagar comes back and gives birth, but then Sarah is even more jealous and tells Abraham to choose either her or Hagar (Gen 16:15; Gen 21:9-10)
Abraham is understandably worried, but agrees to send Hagar & Ishmael away when consoled by God (Gen 21:11-14)
Abraham visits Ishmael about every 7 years for the rest of his days (Gen 22; Gen 17; Muslim traditions)

Forcing the Jewish account to align with Muslim traditions takes surprisingly little editing, and is mainly rearranging a few blocks of text.  And the story that emerges makes allot of sense, agrees with Muslim accounts, and doesn�t have a 40 year old Hagar toting around 18 year old Ishmael like he weighs 3 lbs, but rather has a new mother of a newborn baby understandably frantic in the wilderness, having been twice now driven away, and about to lose all she still has � her only son!  That is a far more touching portrait, and really dramatizes the scene of the �boy� crying � it�s a newborn baby!!  

And the message that emerges also agrees perfectly with the New Testament message, most clearly shown in the Gospel of John, that Almighty God does not need us to sacrifice our children to Him, but, completely in the reverse, Almighty God so loved the World that he gave His only son for us (from John 3:16)!  That is, Almighty God is the Creator of Life, and has no need for us to undo His work by killing our own children to �appease� of �feed� Him, as for example the Canaanites taught.  Indeed, Almighty God loves us, and so we have no need to live in such fear of Him (see 1 John 4:18) that we kill our own children to placate His Wrath � as, for example, the Canaanites taught, and the Gentiles to whom John addressed his �Gentile Gospel� were subjected to.  In other words, in perfect agreement with the message of the Gospel of John, the message of the Aborted Sacrifice is that Almighty God does not need His Believers (embodied by Abraham) to murder their own children, but rather is the Source of Life who gives us more children (recall God�s Bidding to �be fruitful and multiply� in Gen 1:28)!  That is, Abraham�s unwaivering Belief in his willingness to sacrifice his only begotten son, Ishmael, when no other offspring lived to carry on his name, when he thought that was what Almighty God wanted � in other words, Abraham�s willingness to wipe out his whole bloodline if Almighty God truly so bid it � is exactly what Almighty God reversed in Genesis 22:17a, �I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore.�  I cannot overemphasize the power and deep message in this account, revealed only by the Muslim traditions of Hagar, Ishmael and his father Abraham!!  Abraham was willing to wipe out his whole bloodline for Almighty God � but Almighty God not only spared Ishmael, and then gave him Isaac, but even further promised him that his descendants would become as numerous as the stars!!  The power and meaning of this message, revealed by aligning the Jewish accounts with Muslim traditions, and which is in perfect agreement with the Gospel of John, cannot be overstated.

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Bismarck Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2006 Status: Offline Points: 286	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bismarck Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Trying to Right Ishmael Posted: 27 April 2006 at 5:43pm
	Trying to Right Ishmael There are profound differences between the Muslim and Jewish tales of Hagar and Ishmael. For example, in the Muslim account, Hagar is sent away when Ishmael is still a babe nursing at her breast. However, the Jewish version delays Hagar�s sending away until Ishmael is about 18 years old. Therefore, I began to investigate the Jewish version, recorded in Genesis 16-25, to see what it would take to align the Jewish version with the Muslim, in order to see for myself just exactly how different the two stories truly are. I quickly identified some very troubling inconsistencies with the Jewish version. For example, although the description of the sending away of Hagar and Ishmael in the Jewish version (Gen 21:9-20b), taken by itself, closely matches the Muslim version, as we mentioned above the context in which the Jewish tale is set is very different from the context of the Muslim account. As we said, the Muslim version has Hagar fleeing with Ishmael as a nursing babe. But in the Jewish account, Hagar is not driven away until after Isaac is born (Gen 21:2) and weened (Gen 21:8) which typically happens about the age of 4. Thus, Ishmael is about 18 years of age � to wit, a fully grown adult male Bedouin. But even in the Jewish account, Abraham puts the boy Ishmael on Hagar�s shoulders (Gen 21:14), and Hagar puts the boy under a bush (Gen 21:15). Hagar is probably about 40 years old at this point in the Jewish arrangement: Abraham goes to Egypt where Sarah picks up Hagar (Gen 12:10-20), Abraham comes out and lives in Canaan for 10 years before Hagar gives birth (Gen 16:3), and then Ishmael grows to age 18, so if Hagar was 10-12 years old when Sarah took her as her handmaiden, then 28 years later makes Hagar about 40. Moreover, Hagar could not have given birth before about age 13, meaning Hagar must be at least 30. So, we have a 30-40 year old woman giving a piggy-back ride to a fully grown adult Bedouin, one afterwards known as a mighty archer no less, and then just sticking him under a bush or fir tree. Then, our 18 year old Ishmael cries, and it drives his mother Hagar to distraction, and Almighty God hears his cries. Now, would an 18 year old adult male Bedouin soon-to-be archer whimper before his mother, even if he was really hungry or thirsty? To be blunt, an 18 year old man could probably withstand hardship and privation better than a 40 year old woman, and you�d think if one is caring for the other, it would be Ishmael caring for his own mother Hagar. And even if Ishmael fell ill, you would think that a fully grown adult man would put on a stronger show than crying �like a baby�. But we note that viewing the story of Hagar�s Expulsion (Gen 21:9-20b) in the light of the Muslim traditions immediately makes these unseemly details make perfect sense � Hagar is a new mother, nursing her first and only child on her breast, and Hagar�s distress is the frantic torment of a new mother watching her own child suffer in the Sun�s burning heat! So, we begin to wonder if the tale of Hagar�s expulsion has been moved from its original location. Indeed, this seems far more probable than the reverse, namely that the Muslims have rearranged their tale of Hagar�s expulsion, because if that were the case, there would be unseemly details in the Muslim account, arising from the fact that Ishmael was really 18 years old, whereas what we see are unseemly details in the Jewish account consistent with Ishmael being a nursing babe. Another jarring element of the Jewish arrangement of the Hagar and Ishmael stories is the conspicuous 13 year gap between the birth of Ishmael (Gen 16:15) and the Covenant of Circumcision (Gen 17) placed immediately afterwards. In short, Ishmael is born, then we fast forward 13 years to more important things, and then Ishmael at 13 is circumcised. Now, to this we must add the fact that Muslim tradition holds that in this 13 year period, so summarily skipped over in the Jewish account, Ishmael (not Isaac as in Genesis ) is spared from sacrifice. Right or wrong, the Muslim account is again very different from the Jewish account in this important facet of the story. The Muslims say Ishmael was spared sacrifice when he was about 7 years old � but the Jewish tale attributes the Aborted Sacrifice to Isaac when he was about 7 years old. When Isaac was 7, Ishmael was 21, so whereas the expulsion of Hagar and Ishmael is delayed by 18 years in the Jewish version, the Aborted Sacrifice is delayed by 14 years. Whichever tale is true, these clear and unambiguous differences cannot be overlooked. In the case of Hagar�s Expulsion, conspicuous details in the narrative seem to favor the Muslim timing. Do we see similar conspicuous details in the Sacrifice account that could help us properly date that story element? First of all, in the account, the son who is spared is called Abraham�s �only son� (Gen 22:2, 12, 15). Biologically, only Ishmael was ever Abraham�s �only son�. To my knowledge, Jewish scholars do, in point of fact, claim that the words �only son� show Abraham�s full rejection and disowning of Ishmael, we leaves Isaac as Abraham�s �only [Legal] son�. But there are three problems with this interpretation. First, it is unambiguous that interpreting the plain text, which clearly reads �only son�, as actually meaning �only [Legal] son� requires an Allegorical Interpretation of the text, which overlays non-textual traditions over the plain text itself. Next, even in the Jewish account, both Ishmael and Isaac come together to bury their father (Gen 25:9). It is not possible that a fully rejected and disowned son would be allowed to bury his non-Father. Thus again, just as unseemly details arose from the Jewish placement of Hagar�s Expulsion in the Jewish narrative, here too we see unseemly details arise from the Jewish placement (along with the Jewish allegorical interpretations) of the Aborted Sacrifice. And third, after Abraham�s �only son� is spared by Almighty God through His Angel, Abraham goes to Beersheba (Gen 22:19). But Beersheba is exactly the place where even the Jewish account acknowledges Hagar and Ishmael settled (Gen 21:14). Thus, if we briefly allow ourselves to consider that the Jewish tale needs rearrangement, these unseemly details are immediately rectified � of course Abraham returns to Beersheba (with Ishmael), for he has presumably been visiting Hagar, from whom he took Ishmael in the first place, and now Abraham comes back to Hagar bringing her son Ishmael with him. Once again, there are unseemly details in the Jewish arrangement which vanish when the individual story blocks are rearranged in alignment with Muslim traditions. What happens if we, purely as an experiment, briefly allow ourselves to rearrange the individual story blocks in Genesis 16-26 to try to see if we can make them agree with the Muslim arrangement. Is that even possible? If we attribute the Aborted Sacrifice to Ishmael and put it back in, when Ishmael is 7 by tradition, and we put Sarah�s driving away of Hagar right after Ishmael�s birth, a pattern emerges: Abraham is visiting his son Ishmael roughly every 7 years, for Abraham visits Hagar and Ishmael when his �only son� is spared sacrifice (age 7), and Abraham must go back to Hagar and Ishmael to include his son in his Covenant of Circumcision (age 13). And interestingly, Muslim tradition also has Abraham visiting Ishmael about every 7 years from Ishmael�s marriage to his 1^st wife forward. So, interestingly, rearranging the Jewish tale to force it inline with Muslim accounts actually produces a very slick and streamlined picture: Hagar gets pregnant (Gen 16:4) Sarah is jealous, and drives Hagar away while she is pregnant (Gen 16:5-6) Hagar comes back and gives birth, but then Sarah is even more jealous and tells Abraham to choose either her or Hagar (Gen 16:15; Gen 21:9-10) Abraham is understandably worried, but agrees to send Hagar & Ishmael away when consoled by God (Gen 21:11-14) Abraham visits Ishmael about every 7 years for the rest of his days (Gen 22; Gen 17; Muslim traditions) Forcing the Jewish account to align with Muslim traditions takes surprisingly little editing, and is mainly rearranging a few blocks of text. And the story that emerges makes allot of sense, agrees with Muslim accounts, and doesn�t have a 40 year old Hagar toting around 18 year old Ishmael like he weighs 3 lbs, but rather has a new mother of a newborn baby understandably frantic in the wilderness, having been twice now driven away, and about to lose all she still has � her only son! That is a far more touching portrait, and really dramatizes the scene of the �boy� crying � it�s a newborn baby!! And the message that emerges also agrees perfectly with the New Testament message, most clearly shown in the Gospel of John, that Almighty God does not need us to sacrifice our children to Him, but, completely in the reverse, Almighty God so loved the World that he gave His only son for us (from John 3:16)! That is, Almighty God is the Creator of Life, and has no need for us to undo His work by killing our own children to �appease� of �feed� Him, as for example the Canaanites taught. Indeed, Almighty God loves us, and so we have no need to live in such fear of Him (see 1 John 4:18) that we kill our own children to placate His Wrath � as, for example, the Canaanites taught, and the Gentiles to whom John addressed his �Gentile Gospel� were subjected to. In other words, in perfect agreement with the message of the Gospel of John, the message of the Aborted Sacrifice is that Almighty God does not need His Believers (embodied by Abraham) to murder their own children, but rather is the Source of Life who gives us more children (recall God�s Bidding to �be fruitful and multiply� in Gen 1:28)! That is, Abraham�s unwaivering Belief in his willingness to sacrifice his only begotten son, Ishmael, when no other offspring lived to carry on his name, when he thought that was what Almighty God wanted � in other words, Abraham�s willingness to wipe out his whole bloodline if Almighty God truly so bid it � is exactly what Almighty God reversed in Genesis 22:17a, �I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore.� I cannot overemphasize the power and deep message in this account, revealed only by the Muslim traditions of Hagar, Ishmael and his father Abraham!! Abraham was willing to wipe out his whole bloodline for Almighty God � but Almighty God not only spared Ishmael, and then gave him Isaac, but even further promised him that his descendants would become as numerous as the stars!! The power and meaning of this message, revealed by aligning the Jewish accounts with Muslim traditions, and which is in perfect agreement with the Gospel of John, cannot be overstated.

Bismarck Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2006 Status: Offline Points: 286	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bismarck Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 April 2006 at 5:45pm
	The Lore of Hagar and Ishmael Endnotes in Brackets [] Genesis 16 *Hagar and Ishmael* 1 � And Sara the wife of Abram bore him no children; and she had an Egyptian maid, whose name was Agar. 2 And Sara said to Abram, Behold, the Lord has restrained me from bearing, go therefore in to my maid, that I may get children for myself through her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sara. 3 So Sara the wife of Abram having taken Agar the Egyptian her handmaid, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Chanaan, gave her to Abram her husband as a wife to him. 4 � And he went in to Agar, and she conceived, and saw that she was with child, and her mistress was dishonoured before her. 5 And Sara said to Abram, I am injured by thee; I gave my handmaid into thy bosom, and when I saw that she was with child, I was dishonoured before her. The Lord judge between me and thee. 6 And Abram said to Sara, Behold thy handmaid is in thy hands, use her as it may seem good to thee. And Sara afflicted her, and she fled from her face. 7 � And an angel of the Lord found her by the fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Sur. 8 And the angel of the Lord said to her, Agar, Sara�s maid, whence comest thou, and wither goest thou? and she said, I am fleeing from the face of my mistress Sara. 9 And the angel of the Lord said to her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. 10 � And the angel of the Lord said to her, I will surely multiply thy seed, and it shall not be numbered for multitude. 11 And the angel of the Lord said to her, Behold thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ismael, for the Lord hath hearkened to thy humiliation. 12 He shall be a wild man �[1] and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. 13 And she called the name of the Lord God who spoke to her, Thou art God who seest me; for she said, For I have openly seen him that appeared to me. 14 Therefore she called the well, The well of him whom I have openly seen; behold it is between Cades and Barad. 15 � And Agar bore a son to Abram; and Abram called the name of his son which Agar bore to him, Ismael. 16 And Abram was eighty�six years old, when Agar bore Ismael to Abram. Genesis 21 *Hagar and Ishmael Sent Away* *9[2] � And Sarah saw � Hagar the Egyptian, [with]* the son whom she had borne to Abraham, mocking. 10[3] then she said to Abraam, Cast out this bondwoman and her son, for the son of this bondwoman shall not inherit [from me�] 11 But the word appeared very hard before Abraam concerning his son. 12[4] But God said to Abraam, Let it not be hard before thee concerning the child, and concerning the bondwoman; in all things whatsoever Sarrha shall say to thee, hear her voice... 13 And moreover I will make the son of this bondwoman a great nation, because he is thy seed. 14 � And Abraam rose up in the morning and took loaves and a skin of water, and gave them to Agar, and he put the child on her shoulder[5], and sent her away, and she having departed wandered in the wilderness near the well of the oath. {1) Or, near Beersheba} 15 And the water failed out of the skin, and she cast the child under a fir tree. 16 And she departed and sat down opposite him at a distance, as it were a bow�shot, for she said, Surely I cannot see the death of my child: and she sat opposite him, and the child cried aloud and wept. 17 And God heard the voice of the child from the place where he was, and an angel of God called Agar out of heaven, and said to her, What is it, Agar? fear not, for God has heard the voice of the child from the place where he is. 18 Rise up, and take the child, and hold him in thine hand, for I will make him a great nation. 19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of {1} springing water; and she went and filled the skin with water, and gave the child drink. {1) Gr. living} 20a-b And God was with the child, and he grew and dwelt in the wilderness[6]. Genesis 22 Abraham Tested 1 � And it came to pass after these things that God tempted Abraam, and said to him, Abraam, Abraam; and he said, Lo! I am here. 2[7] And he said, Take thy son, the beloved one, whom thou hast loved �� [Ishmael], and go into the high land, and offer him there for a whole�burnt�offering on one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. 3 � And Abraam rose up in the morning and saddled his ass, and he took with him two servants, and [Ishmael] his son, and having split wood for a whole�burnt�offering, he arose and departed, and came to the place of which God spoke to him, 4 on the third day; and Abraam having {1} lifted up his eyes, saw the place afar off. {1) Lit. looked up with} 5 And Abraam said to his servants, Sit ye here with the ass, and I and the lad will proceed thus far, and having worshipped we will return to you. 6 And Abraam took the wood of the whole�burnt�offering, and laid it on [Ishmael] his son, and he took into his hands both the fire and the {1} knife, and the two went together. {1) macairan, a short dagger used both for defence and sacrifice, etc.} 7 And [Ishmael] said to Abraam his father, Father. And he said, What is it, son? And he said, Behold the fire and the wood, where is the sheep for a whole�burnt�offering? 8 And Abraam said, God will provide himself a sheep for a whole�burnt�offering, my son. And both having gone together, 9 came to the place which God spoke of to him; and there Abraam built the altar, and laid the wood on it, and having bound the feet of [Ishmael] his son together, he laid him on the altar upon the wood. 10 And Abraam stretched forth his hand to take the knife to slay his son. 11 � And an angel of the Lord called him out of heaven, and said, Abraam, Abraam. And he said, Behold, I am here. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the child, neither do anything to him, for now I know that thou fearest God, and for my sake thou hast not spared thy beloved son. 13 And Abraam lifted up his eyes and beheld, and lo! a ram caught by his horns in a {1} plant of Sabec; and Abraam went and took the ram, and offered him up for a whole�burnt�offering in the place of [Ishmael] his son. {1) Heb. in a thicket} 14 And Abraam called the name of that place, The Lord hath seen; that they might say to�day, In the mount the Lord was seen. 15 � And an angel of the Lord called Abraam the second time out of heaven, saying, 16 I have sworn by myself, says the Lord, because thou hast done this thing, and on my account hast not spared thy beloved son, 17 {1} surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, and as the sand which is by the shore of the sea, and thy seed shall inherit the cities of their enemies. {1) Heb 6:14} 18 And {1} in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because thou hast hearkened to my voice. {1) Ac 3:25} 19 And Abraam returned to his servants, and they arose and went together to the well of the oath; and Abraam dwelt at the well of the oath.[8] {that is, Beersheba} Genesis 17 The Covenant of Circumcision 1 � And Abram was ninety�nine years old, and the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, I am thy God, be well�pleasing before me, and be blameless. 2 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee, and I will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell upon his face, and God spoke to him, saying, 4 � And I, behold! my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of a multitude of nations. 5 And thy name shall no more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraam, {1} for I have made thee a father of many nations. {1) Ro 4:17} 6 And I will increase thee very exceedingly, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 � And I will establish my covenant between thee and thy seed after thee, to their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be thy God, and the God of thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give to thee and to thy seed after thee the land wherein thou sojournest, even all the land of Chanaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them a God. 9 And God said to Abraam, Thou also shalt fully keep my covenant, thou and thy seed after thee for their generations. 10 And this is the covenant which thou shalt fully keep between me and you, and between thy seed after thee for their generations; every male of you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between me and you. 12 And the child of eight days old shall be circumcised by you, every male throughout your generations, and the servant born in the house and he that is bought with money, of every son of a stranger, who is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with money shall be surely circumcised, and my covenant shall be on your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male, who shall not be circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin on the eighth day, that soul shall be utterly destroyed from its family, for he has broken my covenant. 15 � And God said to Abraam, Sara thy wife��her name shall not be called Sara, Sarrha shall be her name. 16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son of her, and I will bless him, and he shall become nations, and kings of nations shall be of him. 17 And Abraam fell upon his face, and laughed; and spoke in his heart, saying, Shall there be a child to one who is a hundred years old, and shall Sarrha who is ninety years old, bear? 18 And Abraam said to God, Let this Ismael live before thee. 19 And God said to Abraam, Yea, behold, Sarrha thy wife shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish my covenant with him, for an everlasting covenant, to be a God to him and to his seed after him. 20 And concerning Ismael, behold, I have heard thee, and, behold, I have blessed him, and will increase him and multiply him exceedingly; twelve nations shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarrha shall bear to thee at this time, in the next year. 22 And he left off speaking with him, and God went up from Abraam. 23 � And Abraam took Ismael his son[9], and all his home�born servants, and all those bought with money, and every male of the men in the house of Abraam, and he circumcised their foreskins in the time of that day, according as God spoke to him. 24 And Abraam was ninety�nine years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And Ismael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 And at the period of that day, Abraam was circumcised, and Ismael his son, 27 and all the men of his house, both those born in the house, and those bought with money of foreign nations. Genesis 21 20c And [Ishmael][10] became an archer. 21 And he dwelt in the wilderness, and his mother took him a wife out of Pharan of Egypt.[11] Genesis 18 The Three Visitors (1-15) Abraham Pleads for Sodom (16-33) Genesis 19 Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed (1-29) Lot and His Daughters in Incest (30-38) Genesis 20 Abraham and Abimelech (1-18) Genesis 21 The Birth of Isaac 1 � And the Lord visited Sarrha, as he said, and the Lord did to Sarrha, as he spoke. 2 And she conceived and bore to Abraam a son in old age, at the set time according as the Lord spoke to him. 3 And Abraam called the name of his son that was born to him, whom Sarrha bore to him, Isaac. 4 And Abraam circumcised Isaac on the eighth day, as God commanded him. 5 And Abraam was a hundred years old when Isaac his son was born to him. 6 And Sarrha said, The Lord has made laughter for me, for whoever shall hear shall rejoice with me. 7 And she said, Who shall say to Abraam that Sarrha suckles a child? for I have born a child in my old age. 8 And the child grew and was weaned, and Abraam made a great feast the day that his son Isaac was weaned. � The Treaty at Beersheba 22 � And it came to pass at that time that Abimelech spoke, and Ochozath {1} his friend, and Phichol the chief captain of his host, to Abraam, saying, God is with thee in all things[12], whatsoever thou mayest do. {1) Not in the Heb. friend of bridegroom, or attendant at marriage} 23 Now therefore swear to me by God that thou wilt not injure me, nor my seed, nor my name, but according to the righteousness which I have performed with thee thou shalt deal with me, and with the land in which thou hast sojourned. 24 And Abraam said, I will swear. 25 And Abraam reproved Abimelech because of the wells of water, which the servants of Abimelech took away. 26 And Abimelech said to him, I know not who has done this thing to thee, neither didst thou tell it me, neither heard I it but only to�day. 27 And Abraam took sheep and calves, and gave them to Abimelech, and both made a covenant. 28 And Abraam set seven ewe�lambs by themselves. 29 And Abimelech said to Abraam, What are these seven ewe�lambs which thou hast set alone? 30 And Abraam said, Thou shalt receive the seven ewe�lambs of me, that they may be for me as a witness, that I dug this well. 31 Therefore he named the name of that place, The Well of the Oath, for there they both swore. 32 And they made a covenant at the well of the oath. And there rose up Abimelech, Ochozath his friend, and Phichol the commander�in�chief of his army, and they returned to the land of the Phylistines. 33 � And Abraam planted a field at the well of the oath, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God. 34 And Abraam sojourned in the land of the Phylistines many days. Genesis 22 Nahor�s Sons (20-24) Genesis 23 The Death of Sarah (1-20) Genesis 24 Isaac and Rebekah (1-67) Genesis 25 The Death of Abraham 1 � And Abraam again took a wife, whose name was Chettura. 2 And she bore to him Zombran, and Jezan, and Madal, and Madiam, and Jesboc, and Soie. 3 And Jezan begot Saba and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were the Assurians and the Latusians, and Laomim. 4 And the sons of Madiam were Gephar and Aphir, and Enoch, and Abeida, and Eldaga; all these were sons of Chettura. 5 But Abraam gave all his possessions to Isaac his son. 6 But to the sons of his concubines Abraam gave gifts, and he sent them away from his son Isaac, while he was yet living, to the east into the country of the east. 7 And these were the years of the days of the life of Abraam as many as he lived, a hundred and seventy�five years. 8 And Abraam failing died in a good old age, an old man and full of days, and was added to his people. 9 And Isaac and Ismael his sons buried him in the double cave[13], in the field of Ephron the son of Saar the Chettite, which is over against Mambre: 10 even the field and the cave which Abraam bought of the sons of Chet; there they buried Abraam and Sarrha his wife. 11 � And it came to pass after Abraam was dead, that God blessed Isaac his son, and Isaac dwelt by the well of the vision. The Generations of Ishmael 12 And these are the generations of Ismael the son of Abraam, whom Agar the Egyptian the hand�maid of Sarrha bore to Abraam. 13 And these are the names of the sons of Ismael, according to the names of their generations. The firstborn of Ismael, Nabaioth, and Kedar, and Nabdeel, and Massam, 14 and Masma, and Duma, and Masse, 15 and Choddan, and Thaeman, and Jetur, and Naphes, and Kedma. 16 These are the sons of Ismael, and these are their names in their tents and in their dwellings, twelve princes according to their nations. 17 And these are the years of the life of Ismael, a hundred and thirty�seven years[14]; and he failed and died, and was added to his {1} fathers. {1) Gr. family} 18 And he dwelt from Evilat to Sur, which is opposite Egypt, until one comes to the Assyrians; he dwelt in the presence of all his brethren[15]. Jacob and Esau (19-34) Genesis 26 Isaac and Abimelech (1-35) Genesis 27 Jacob gets Isaac�s Blessing (1-40) Jacob flees to Laban (41-46)** � [1] We have cut out the clause, �his hands against all, and the hands of all against him�. To be blunt, this would seem to be wishful thinking on the part of the later redactor, who, we reason, was clearly biased against Ishmael and his bloodlines. Furthermore, see the Endnote on Genesis 25:18. The LXX (Brenton) there has Ishmael dwelling �in the presence� of all his brethren, whereas the Masoretic (Darby, NIV) has �in hostility to� all his brethren! Quite a difference! We infer that the anti-Ishmael redactor introduced the phrases �in hostility to all� in both Genesis 16:12 and Genesis 25:18. But, as is most often the case, the LXX preserves a more faithful textual tradition, which did not include the false alterations to the latter. Thankfully, this allows us to take the LXX one better, and remove the anti-Ishmaelite interpolation in the former as well. In any event, everyone must acknowledge that between the Blessing in Genesis 16:12 and Ishmael�s (possible) fulfillment of the Blessing in Genesis 25:18 there is certainly some ambiguity! And, everyone must also acknowledge that if ever there were edits done to the underlying text, exactly these types of variant readings would be produced! Furthermore, the Jewish version of Genesis 16:12, it must be openly acknowledged, does turn what the reader naively expects to be a Blessing from God Almighty upon Ishmael into something of a curse! [2] Compare the LXX (Brenton) with the Masoretic (Darby): And Sarrha having seen the son of Agar the Egyptian who was born to Abraam, sporting with Isaac her son, (LXX) And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, mocking. (M) We see that both texts are essentially identical, save that the LXX has appended the words, �with Isaac her son�. Now, we suspect that �Isaac� is an interpolation here, as our placement of Hagar�s expulsion by Sarah soon after Ishmael�s birth demands in turn that Isaac, who will not be born for another 14 years, not be present in this narrative. And interestingly, the very words we suspect as having been added to the Masoretic � and note that they also appear at the end of the sentence, where it would be easiest for a scribe to add them � are indeed the only words to mention Isaac by name. This corroborates our suspicions that Isaac has been artificially introduced by a later redactor. But note that even if we cut out the words �with Isaac�, we still have the words �her son�. And this makes the noun �son� appear twice in this sentence. Since we already suspect the whole clause �with Isaac her son� to be fake, we wonder if somehow the error of the second �(her) son� somehow is a clue pointing to an error with the first �(the) son�. Indeed, moving these very words makes the transition from Genesis 16:16 to 21:9 perfectly clear. So this is the reasoning I used to arrive at my re-arrangement of Genesis 21:9. [3] The original LXX reading ends not with �from me�, but rather �with my son Isaac.� Again, we strike out the words �son Isaac� as a false interpolation. This leaves �with my� or �with me�, which I render �from me�. That is, out of jealousy, Sarah does disown her surrogate son Ishmael and forces Abram to drive both mother and newborn away. This sets up the touching scenes to follow. [4] The original LXX reading is: But God said to Abraam, Let it not be hard before thee concerning the child, and concerning the bondwoman; in all things whatsoever Sarrha shall say to thee, hear her voice, for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. As with Genesis 21:9, we not only suspect all Isaac references outright, but also note that this Isaac reference appears at the end of the sentence, where it would be easiest for a redactor to insert his words. So, we strike the clause. For merely replacing �Isaac� with �Ishmael� would make Abraham disown Isaac, which is impossible because the Messiah came from Isaac. Thus, we see that the whole concept of Abraham disowning his sons is complete fabrication! [5] In the Jewish arrangement, Ishmael is 18 years old at this time, for Isaac is born when Ishmael is 14, and then Isaac is weaned (generally age 4), and then at last Hagar and Ishmael are driven away. According to Genesis 16:3, Abraham dwelt in Canaan for 10 years after leaving Egypt, where Sarai got her Egyptian handmaiden Hagar. So, at this point in the Jewish arrangement of the text, it has been 28 years since Hagar left Egypt. Assuming Sarai took Hagar at around the age of 10 or 12, this makes Hagar nearly 40 years old. Would Abram have casually put a fully grown 18 year old Bedouin man on his 40 year old mother�s shoulders?? We think not. We also doubt that Hagar could herself casually put her 18 year old adult son under a tree (LXX) or bush (M), as we also doubt that an 18 year old Bedouin man would whimper and cry before his own mother. It seems rather clear that our re-arrangement of these tales is both far more plausible (for Ishmael is here a newborn) as well as in agreement with Islamic traditions as given by the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). It also makes us feel for Hagar�s plight � she has now been twice cast out of her own house by her mistress Sarai, within only a few months time to boot, and this time forever. And burdened as she is with the sufferings of her infant�s cries and her own inability to provide for her only child, her distress becomes quite extraordinarily understandable. [6] This would seem to fulfill God�s fore-telling in Genesis 16:12 that Ishmael would be a �wild man�, that is, a �man of the wild� or a �man of the wilderness�. We even wonder if that is closer to the original meaning. We await the fulfillment of God�s other fore-telling, that Ishmael would �dwell amongst his brothers�, until Genesis 25:8 below. We further see that God�s fore-tellings are fulfilled in the very order that God gave them (first, Ishmael dwells in the wilderness as a �man of the wild� (Gen 21:20b), then Ishmael dwells amongst his brothers (Gen 25:8))! Moreover, we note that Isaac will be one of Ishmael�s brothers. The others will be listed in Genesis 25:1-2 as Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah, sons of Abraham�s 3^rd wife Keturah (her name means �incense�). Note that all these sons save Zimran (�vine-dresser�) have antagonistic names (�snarer�, �contention�, �strife�, �leaving�, and �pit� respectively), and we wonder if somehow these reputations rubbed off on Ishmael�s treatment in the text. Through Keturah, Abraham became the �father of many nations�. [7] We have replaced a bogus reference to Isaac with the correct name Ishmael. [8] Note that the �Well of the Oath�, or Beersheba, is precisely where Hagar took Ishmael to dwell. This corroborates our suspicions that Ishmael was indeed the one spared, for now the text naturally reads, as it were, �And Abram returned to Hagar at the �Well of the Oath�� where he presumably stayed for sometime with his only son, then 7 or 8 by tradition, and his mother. [9] Abram has now visited his son Ishmael and his mother twice, once at age 7 or 8, and again at age 13. As we remarked before, Islamic tradition holds that Abraham visited his son every 7 years or so from the time of his manhood forward. Thus we see that our re-arrangement of the Hebrew scriptures meshes perfectly with this natural pattern, on Abraham�s part, of visiting his son about every 7 years! Abraham never forgot about his eldest son Ishmael, but rather visited him regularly. [10] We have replaced the pronoun �he� with its referent subject �Ishmael�. [11] This is where Islamic tradition picks up. We wonder if, perhaps, this is why the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did not dictate any traditions about the earlier childhood of Ishmael � because those stories were still accurately recorded in Jewish scriptures, albeit in an artificial order. Note also how our re-arrangement makes for a �Happy Ending� at Genesis 21:20. See how the whole nail-biting drama of Abraham and his eldest son Ishmael is completely resolved before we turn to other matters! Our version, then, leaves no loose ends or ill will in the air, but rather completes the story of Ishmael�s reconciliation and full acceptance by his father Abraham (even as he had been spurned by his mother Sarah). Ishmael then grows up to be a strong and successful man who takes a wife and lives happily ever after. Right or wrong, this is certainly a more pleasant reading! Note further that Hagar goes back to Egypt, her homeland, to get a wife for her son Ishmael. This would indicate that she kept in touch with her blood-kin back home in Egypt, upon who she leaned for help in rearing her son. And, whether relevant or not, Greek mythology does place Arabus (Arab) as a cousin of Aegyptus (Egypt), showing that the links between Arabia and Egypt were widely known in the Eastern Mediterranean. [12] It is crucial to see here how, now, in our arrangement, Abimelech�s observation that �God is with thee in all things� comes on the heels, not of Hagar and Ishmael�s casting out (Genesis 9-21), but instead upon the exceptional birth of his new son Isaac! That is, right or wrong, the Jewish arrangement is in fact quite cold indeed towards Ishmael! No sooner is he and his mother driven away than Abimelech is made to say that Almighty God is blessing him and his every deed! Right or wrong, that is a very cold should for Almighty God to give Ishmael, the son He Himself blessed and guarded in the Wilderness! [13] Ismael and Isaac are clearly reconciled, and both are clearly acknowledged as Abraham�s rightful sons, to be allowed to bury their father. I suspect that original ordering was, of course, �Ishmael and Isaac� versus what we read, which had their names reversed. [14] Note that Abraham lived to be 175 years old (Gen 25:7) and Ishmael 137 years (Gen 25:17). Later we read that Isaac lived to be 180 years old (Gen 35:27). Insofar as lifespan is often a gage of a person�s Godliness, we are certainly impressed that Isaac exceeded even his father Abraham � founder of all 3 major Abrahamic Beliefs � in Rightwiseness. [15] This completes the Blessing of Almighty God from Genesis 16:12, that Ishmael would �dwell in the presence of all his brethren�. Note that the Masoretic Text, as rendered both by Darby and the NIV, put Ishmael, not in the �presence� of all his brethren, but in hostility to all his brethren! Sometimes, as in Young�s Literal Translation, Ishmael �falls� � seemingly, �dies� -- in the presence of his brethren. And sometimes, as with Friedman�s translation in The Bible with Sources Revealed, it is rendered �fell� in �hostility� to his brothers! Thus, we have allot of variation in this passage. Does Ishmael live, or fall? And is it with, or against, his brothers?

Bismarck Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2006 Status: Offline Points: 286	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bismarck Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 April 2006 at 6:51pm
	I'm not sure I made one point clear, namely, why I think Ishmael has been wronged by the present ordering of the story blocks of Hagar and Ishmael in the Jewish OT. Let me summarize with one point. Look at Genesis 21. Here's the breakdown: Birth of Isaac (1-8) Hagar & Ishmael Sent Away (9-21) Treaty at Beersheba (22-34) Now, read how the 3rd block, the Treaty at Beersheba, opens (line 22), immediately after Hagar & Ishmael are sent away: At that time Abimelech and Phicol the commander of his forces said to Abraham, "God is with you in everything you do." See the message? Abraham "disowns" Ishmael, as my understanding of Jewish tradition tells me... and straight away we are told that "God is with Abraham in everything he does". That is, Abraham "disowns" Ishmael, and it is God Willed and God Praised. Right or wrong, wrong or right, that is an extreme disrespect to Ishmael. He is disowned, and his expulsion is sanctioned by Almighty God. Right or wrong, that is a hardcore slap in Ishmael's face -- you are such a worthless son, that Almighty God demands you be expelled! That is exactly and precisely what I understand the message to be. That is a hardcore dis, put in the mouth of Abraham, against his own bloodson Ishmael. Now, watch how the passage reads in my re-ordering of these passages: Birth of Isaac (1-8) -------------------- Treaty at Beersheba (22-34) Now, in my re-arrangement, Isaac is born, Abraham is blessed by Almighty God with new life in his family, and then Abimelech and Phicol say, "God is with you in all you do." See the difference? Almighty God's stamp of total utter complete approval is no longer applied to Ishmael's Expulsion... but Isaac's Birth. God's Blessing of Isaac's Birth, in my ordering, is now a re-iteration of God's promised Blessing of Abraham in Genesis 22:16-18, to make his offspring as numerous as the grains of sand on Earth and the Stars in Heaven. See the difference? In my ordering, Isaac's birth is seen as total utter complete proof that Almighty God really is with Abraham, and giving him more offspring, just as Almighty God said He would do in Gen 22:16-18. God's Sanction, in my ordering, is now a blessing to the Blood of Abraham (Isaac) instead of a curse to the Blood of Abraham (Ishmael). Right or wrong, that is a big difference.

AhmadJoyia Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647	Post Options Post Reply Quote AhmadJoyia Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 April 2006 at 2:02pm
	Wow! Someone is putting real, real good effort that I must appreciate. Keep it up.

BMZ Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852	Post Options Post Reply Quote BMZ Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 April 2006 at 11:15pm
	I am all for it, Bismarck. A great injustice had been done to Ishmael and I appreciate your efforts. Ishmael was the First Born of Abraham. God of OT, for some unknown reasons, was always partial and preferred the First Born, according to the Bible. Perhaps, in your research, you would like to add that God Almighty heard the cries of Hagar and the infant Ishmael. That is why he was given the name "For he was heard by God". There was no one with that name before Ishmael got it. From then on the Lord God was always with him while he grew. Do you happen to know what is the meaning of Issac? Please let me know, if you do. Edited by bmzsp

Sign*Reader Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3352	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sign*Reader Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 April 2006 at 9:10pm
	Bismarck: We had researched and discussed timeline study about Ishaq and Ismaeel within our study group many years ago. And we knew the OT account didn't jive and we left it at that it was one of those things nobody could any thing about. But there was an additional discovery from the NT which your post has confirmed. Now all was well and good till your conclusion turned into concoction and that doesn't sit well with Muslim faith. You wrote: And the message that emerges also agrees perfectly with the New Testament message, most clearly shown in the Gospel of John, that Almighty God does not need us to sacrifice our children to Him, but, completely in the reverse, Almighty God so loved the World that he gave His only son for us (from John 3:16)! That is, Almighty God is the Creator of Life, and has no need for us to undo His work by killing our own children to �appease� of �feed� Him, as for example the Canaanites taught. Indeed, Almighty God loves us, and so we have no need to live in such fear of Him (see 1 John 4:18) that we kill our own children to placate His Wrath � as, for example, the Canaanites taught, and the Gentiles to whom John addressed his �Gentile Gospel� were subjected to. In other words, in perfect agreement with the message of the Gospel of John, the message of the Aborted Sacrifice is that Almighty God does not need His Believers (embodied by Abraham) to murder their own children, but rather is the Source of Life who gives us more children--------- The world was divided on the race lines around the birth of Jesus. There Persians, Brahmins and Romans all fair skinned who enslaved the colored people of the known world. These were trinitarians but the Jews supposedly monotheistic group didn't behave any better. It was fine for fair skinned children of Ibrahim to look down upon their own colored cousins who were living in Arabian peninsula. It was ironic when the European knocked down the Temple for second time some of them did end up in Arabian territory. Our conclusion was bcs it was Paul (a self styled prophet) totally obsessed with creating a new dogma of redemption to sell to European Mithraic trintarian cultists added the racist content into his prolific writings. He left his jewish faith but perpetuated the racist superiority mindset for the Christian generations to come. Most of the time he didn't know what he was talking about--Mount Sinai in Arabia? Setting up standards for the slave traders to come? Who should be free and who should be slave. Any how the Europeans could not ask any better package than this. They ended up colonising the whole darn world. What goes around comes around, the time for rechoning will come. It is just a matter of time till Jesus gets back to settle this - Read the following from NT Galatians 21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a abondmaid�, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to a bondage, which is bAgar�. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But aJerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, aRejoice�, thou bbarren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the achildren� of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the aflesh bpersecuted� him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? aCast� out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. If this is not the formula for human slavery what is ?
	Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

fredifreeloader Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 456	Post Options Post Reply Quote fredifreeloader Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 May 2006 at 6:26am
	*bismarck* wrote: "I quickly identified some very troubling inconsistencies with the Jewish version. For example, although the description of the sending away of Hagar and Ishmael in the Jewish version (Gen 21:9-20b), taken by itself, closely matches the Muslim version, as we mentioned above the context in which the Jewish tale is set is very different from the context of the Muslim account. As we said, the Muslim version has Hagar fleeing with Ishmael as a nursing babe. But in the Jewish account, Hagar is not driven away until after Isaac is born (Gen 21:2) and weened (Gen 21:8) which typically happens about the age of 4. Thus, Ishmael is about 18 years of age � to wit, a fully grown adult male Bedouin." so weaning takes place at the agoe of 4? -according to dr jamal badawi, the muslim polemicist, who was quoted on another thread, it took place at the age of three, so according to him ishmael was a "husky"(!) teenager of 17. this: http://kidshealth.org/parent/growth/feeding/weaning.html tells another story. ishmael may have been 15. in any event we do not know how big he was (as a former teacher i have come across many very small 15 year old boys. boys do not develop physically as quickly as girls "But even in the Jewish account, Abraham puts the boy Ishmael on Hagar�s shoulders (Gen 21:14), and Hagar puts the boy under a bush (Gen 21:15)." no, abraham does not put the boy on her shoulders, it was the bottle (ie. skin) of water he placed on her shoulder. she has the skin of water over one shoulder. she will need one hand to keep this in place. your scenario has a baby on the other shoulder. would a mother carry a baby this way? and what does she do with the bread? how many hands does the woman have? no, ishmael walked away with hagar///////------Gen 21: 15 does not say she put the boy under a bush, it says she cast him under the bush. so mothers have now taken to throwing their babies on the ground? no, he was a teenage boy " Hagar is probably about 40 years old at this point in the Jewish arrangement: Abraham goes to Egypt where Sarah picks up Hagar (Gen 12:10-20), Abraham comes out and lives in Canaan for 10 years before Hagar gives birth (Gen 16:3), and then Ishmael grows to age 18, so if Hagar was 10-12 years old when Sarah took her as her handmaiden, then 28 years later makes Hagar about 40. Moreover, Hagar could not have given birth before about age 13, meaning Hagar must be at least 30. So, we have a 30-40 year old woman giving a piggy-back ride to a fully grown adult Bedouin, one afterwards known as a mighty archer no less, and then just sticking him under a bush or fir tree. Then, our 18 year old Ishmael cries, and it drives his mother Hagar to distraction, and Almighty God hears his cries. Now, would an 18 year old adult male Bedouin soon-to-be archer whimper before his mother, even if he was really hungry or thirsty? To be blunt, an 18 year old man could probably withstand hardship and privation better than a 40 year old woman, and you�d think if one is caring for the other, it would be Ishmael caring for his own mother Hagar. And even if Ishmael fell ill, you would think that a fully grown adult man would put on a stronger show than crying �like a baby�." you know, this is just all so typically bismarck, isnt it? - all ifs and buts and maybes. i dont know why you just cant read whats on the page in front of you. where does it say that ishmael "cried like a baby" in front of his mother? or "whimpered"? it states clearly in v.17 that God heard his voice after his mother had moved "a good way off" - v.16. ---actually if he did cry in front of his mother, he would not be the first teenage boy to do so, i wouldnt have thought. but it doesnt actually say he cried at all - it says God heard his voice. it was hagar who lifted up her voice, and wept. we also do not know how strong hagar was. remember that she was no lady of leisure, but a servant. nor do we know how long she was required to carry ishmael well i may come back to this later, ive only looked at your first paragraph.
	for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16

BMZ Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852	Post Options Post Reply Quote BMZ Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 03 May 2006 at 2:40am
	Bismarck, What strikes me is that God was with the boy Ishmael, the First Born of Abraham while he grew but not with the Second Born of the free woman.