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Jesus and His prophecies

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George View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:21am

BMZ made some interesting claims on another thread and I thought perhaps it would be a good idea to start another topic in case other Muslims may have the same ideas.  This is the first one:

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

According to Paul, Christianity lives or dies on the Resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:14-17). Now Jesus made many promises concerning his return during the lifetime of his then followers.  (Matthew 16:28: �There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom�.  Matthew 23:36, 24:34, Mark.9:1, 13:30, Luke 9:27, 21:32 & John 21:22).

Not a single prophecy in above came true. All the disciples were dead. The gospel writers were dead. Paul and his team of apostles were dead. Why did Jesus make that false promise? Because of his failure to come back in their lifetime, don't you think Christianity invalidates itself?  

All the prophecies came true, BMZ.  Most of prophesies in Matthew, Chapter 24 refer to events prior to and including the destruction of the Temple in 70AD which came true during the lifetime of the present generation standing before Jesus.  You need to know the history during that period in order to match the events before the fall of Jerusalem.  I can go through some of them if you wish, one at a time.

Matthew 16:28 refers to Jesus' resurrection from the dead.  See Matthew 28:18, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

John 21 22 Jesus said to him, �If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.�  Jesus is referring to his Second Coming.

Matthew 24, starting with verse 35 and on refers to the end of the world.

Jesus said the time of the fall of Jerusalem would be identifiable with signs�see parable of the fig tree.  Jesus said that the time of the end of the world would not come with signs�see parable of the thief.

Peace

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AbRah2006 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AbRah2006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2006 at 12:21pm

Jesus and His prophecies

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Paul prophesies that all prophecies will fail. But since this itself is a prophecy, it also will fail (if the prophecy is correct), making it a false prophecy.

The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9.  But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea".  Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.

In John 14:13-14 Jesus stated: "And whatsoever ye ask in my name I do, that the Father may be glorified in the son.  If ye ask any thing in my name, I will do it."  In reality, millions of people have made millions of requests in Jesus� name and failed to receive satisfaction.  This promise or prophecy has failed completely.

Allah is the All Mighty God so it is Allah Who gives you life and saves you. It is Allah to whom you pray and worship.

Who is Allah? � He is God; there is no god but He. He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God; there is no god but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of the Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God, the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the Almighty, the All-Wise� (Quran 59:22-24).

             � There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them, and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth. The preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious� (Quran 2:255).



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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George View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2006 at 12:47pm

All of the prophecies BMZ mentioned were fulfilled prior to and including the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD.

The other prophecies refer to the Second Coming which will happen someday.

We do not know when Jesus will return.  It will happen suddenly.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AbRah2006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2006 at 2:52am

OnE Of THE Prophecies Christians Use to Verify Jesus as the Messiah, Yet Clearly Fail:

(1) "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."  Micah 5:2 The gospel of Matthew (Matthew 2:5-6) claims that Jesus� birth in Bethlehem fulfils this prophecy.  But this is unlikely for two reasons.

    A) "Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb�s second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chronicles 2:18, 2:50-52 & 4:4).

    B) The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from Micah 5:6.  This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did.  It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make this verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan.

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2006 at 4:16am

George,

It appears to me that you are getting confused over the issue otherwise you would not have quoted John 21:22 to me.

George, you quoted out of context: "John 21:22 Jesus said to him, �If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.�  Jesus is referring to his Second Coming."

It shows that Jesus did not will that he remained till Jesus came back. The above does not point out to his second coming.

Peter had disowned Jesus three times in Jesus' times of great distress. So, in John 22:15-18 after making sure three times that Simon loved him, Jesus said to Peter in John 22:19, " Follow me!" If Peter had been really sincere and had loved Jesus, he should have blindly followed Jesus without a second thought. Instead, what does Peter do? Simon Peter turns around to see whoelse is following!!! He saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (The name of that beloved disciple is not given here but it is said that he was on the table and had leaned back against Jesus asking him,"Lord, who is going to betray you."

21:22Jesus answered,"If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."

"If I want him to remain alive" does not prove that Jesus was talking as a God or that he was deciding on life and death of others. People wish that their dear ones live long and remain alive until people are themselves gone. There is no claim by Jesus there.

If Peter had truly loved Jesus and had followed him as instructed, that question would not arise. Here Peter is talking about somethingelse and Jesus is quoted replying about somethingelse! Peter simply asked when he saw the disciple following them,"Lord what about him?" which simply means,"Lord, is it OK if he follows us?" That was Peter's question. Why would Jesus answer something like John21:22. It just does not fit. And then Jesus tells Peter again "You must follow".

In simple words, Jesus was annoyed and unhappy with Peter and was being sarcastic when he said to Peter:"If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?" and this was really like a scolding to Peter. Personally, I believe that John wrote it that way. Please note That Jesus did not say,"If I want to keep him alive till I come back again, I will keep him alive".  

What do you really make out of John 21:24This is the dsiciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true."

Do you consider John21:24 to be the disciple John who wrote the gospel of John? I don't, for John is writing about another person. I would like to know what were the testimonies of that disciple? Who has his testimonies?

In short, neither did that disciple live nor did Jesus come back. 

Please read my post very carefully and let me have your thoughts to each and every point raised.

 

 



Edited by bmzsp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2006 at 8:21am

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

It appears to me that you are getting confused over the issue otherwise you would not have quoted John 21:22 to me.

You are the one who first noted John 21:22.  I was merely responding to it.  Most of the rest of the Scripture citings you referred to are what is called the Olivet Discourse, which is about the events prior to and including the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD and these prophecies came true.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

George, you quoted out of context: "John 21:22 Jesus said to him, �If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.�  Jesus is referring to his Second Coming."

It shows that Jesus did not will that he remained till Jesus came back. The above does not point out to his second coming.

BMZ, you were the one who quoted John 21:22 and only verse 22 and it does refer to Jesus' Second Coming.  The return of Jesus isn't mentioned elsewhere in the book, but this shows that it was assumed throughout.

Let me explain simply what is going on here.

Jesus told Peter that he is going to have to follow him, not only in being a shepherd to the flock, but in glorifying God through dying as a martyr (verses 18-19).  Peter responds and asks what about John?  Peter wants to know if John will share the same fate, too.  Jesus essentially tells Peter that it is none of his business.

You know the story about the last Chapter in the Gospel of John as well as the collaboration of the whole Gospel.  It is said that John and Andrew and some of the other disciples discussed it with John and agreed that John should write it and agreed upon what was being said.  I believe that the last Chapter was not actually written by John.  Perhaps it was in rough draft form before his death; perhaps they discussed it but John was unable to get it down on paper before he died.   I think it is possible that Andrew and the other disciples had a scribe write down the words signifying that they agreed with John's Gospel and they wanted to point out that Jesus did not say that John would still be alive at Jesus' Second Coming.

Now with that said, do you want to go through the Olivet Discourse?  You are the one who said that the prophecies did not come true.  I say that they did.

Peace
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2006 at 9:15am

I think I will leave it at that. But thanks anyway, for the note on the testimony of the man.

Good Night

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George View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2006 at 9:26am
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

I think I will leave it at that. But thanks anyway, for the note on the testimony of the man.

Good Night

Not so fast, BMZ.  You cannot make an allegation against Jesus and then quit.  Your charges against him were serious and this is not the first time you have made them.

Do you now admit that the prophecies you questioned have to do with the events prior to and including the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD and that they were fulfilled?

Peace

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