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minuteman View Drop Down
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Points: 1642 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2008 at 2:41am
 
 Seeks, I have read your post 12:19 a.m. completely. We will move one by one. I hope you will be patient. I have noted your point that the killing of the apostate is a fundamental article of your faith.
 
 1. First tell me "Is there any verse in the Quran saying that any one changing his religion, kill him."??
 
 I said Quran first. So let us start with the Quran. What Quran say about it.  Please answer the above question by repeating my question and then replying Yes or No.  Thanks.
 
 
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H3OO View Drop Down
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SR said
when Prophet had sent his governors to far off areas they were fully authorized to operate!

1st this again proves that it was the personal opinion of  Muadh ra and not any order of prophet[sa] AND then why did he said that it was the order of prophet[sa] and ALLAH.

and yes, are you to operate if u are given authority but u cannot make such major decisions that involves someones life on the basis of assertions, where there is no clear order in Quran or by the prophet[sa]  .Even prophet[sa] never took such decisions on his own, then how come a companion of his. and as i said we also dont know, how prophet[sa] reacted to this when he heard of the incident which im sure would have been negative.

A man with half a common sense can under stand this simple fact. I guess no more to say on this from my side.

Edited by H3OO - 20 October 2008 at 3:02am
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seekshidayath View Drop Down
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Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

 
 Seeks, I have read your post 12:19 a.m. completely. We will move one by one. I hope you will be patient. I have noted your point that the killing of the apostate is a fundamental article of your faith.
 
 
 
I did not say that killing an apostate is a fundamental article. Kindly re-read those lines.
 
 
 
 1. First tell me "Is there any verse in the Quran saying that any one changing his religion, kill him."??
 
 I said Quran first. So let us start with the Quran. What Quran say about it.  Please answer the above question by repeating my question and then replying Yes or No.  Thanks.
 
You cannot look over Qur'an alone, minuteman. I asked you to stick to your line that you follow Qur'an and sunnah. Did you mention there as Qur'an first, sunah next ? Are you a Quranite ? Anyways, i wish you to answer my questions of my earlier post.
 
There is no ayah which says that an apostate be killed, neither is there any ayah, where it is said, they are not be killed. But the hadiths are crystal clear, that they are to be killed. It was the sunnah that they were killed. As Allah swt commanded us in the Qur'an to take what Prophet gives us, so am i following that hadith. Well, if you do follow Qur'an and sunnah, you cannot deny this
 
 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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seekshidayath View Drop Down
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Points: 3357 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seekshidayath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2008 at 3:15am
May Allah swt, accept your efforts {brother Sasha}. Both of you {Sign Reader too} are doing a great job. Our readers atleast get aware when you point him out.
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Whisper View Drop Down
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Points: 4752 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whisper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2008 at 4:28am
A man with half a common sense can under stand this simple fact.
 
A man with half the commone sense BY WHOSE STANDARD?
Your standard? Who are you to hold any yardsticks at all. What are you? Some ultra special son of some ultra special bitch? also suffering from chronic + acute deep Psychosis.
 
Why shall anyone pay you or your shrill vulgar third rate barks any heed?
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Whisper View Drop Down
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Points: 4752 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whisper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2008 at 4:54am
May Allah swt, accept your efforts {brother Sasha}. Both of you {Sign Reader too} are doing a great job. Our readers atleast get aware when you point him out.
 
Brother, the readers are far smarter than some poor ailing person can ever think! They found him out the day he had come in. Why do you think no one pays him any attention other than ME - just for entertainment and S*R - out of his love of Islam.
 
He never needed anyone's help to demolish his credibilty. And, each hour his ailment is showing in bright colours. We don't need to hold a poll.  


Edited by Whisper - 20 October 2008 at 5:03am
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H3OO View Drop Down
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SR and Seeks and others interested
Important.

This will further prove my point that the action of [Muadh ra] which was based on his personal opinion and not some definite authority  was a big  mistake and that we still have no idea as to how prophet[sa] reacted to such incident after he heard it.


Here is one very famous incident in which a companion of prophet[sa] used his personal opinion in making a major decision  [involving someones life] and just see the reaction of prophet[sa] when he heard of it. He was very very displeased:

_______________________
"Hadrat Usamara relates: We went on a sariyya (a military expedition, unaccompanied by the Holy Prophetsa) and mounted an early morning attack on the al-Huruqat region of the Juhaina tribe. I encountered a man and, when I got the better of him, he recited the Kalima, 'There is none worthy of worship, except
Allah.'7�but I still killed him.

This pricked my conscience, and when I returned to Medina I related the incident to the Holy Prophetsa. He replied, "O Usama! Did you kill him despite his reciting La ilaha illAllah?" I submitted, "O Messenger of Allah! but he recited La ilaha illAllah due to his fear of the weapons and for fear of getting killed."

The Holy Prophetsa exclaimed, "Why did you not cut open his [chest to look at his] heart so that you could ascertain whether he had recited it due to fear or whether it was a heartfelt recital?"
Thereafter he said, "On the day of Judgement, what would be your response to La ilaha illAllah?" I submitted, "O Messenger of Allah!

Please say istighfar[Prayer beseeching God to cover up a sin] for me." But he continued to repeat his remark time and again�so much so that I wished that I had not become a Muslim prior to that day, [so as to escape this occasion of being the recipient of such displeasure of the Holy Prophetsa].Sahih Muslim, Hadith No. 277
________________________________________________


I hope u did  read this, just see the reaction of prophet[sa], how much bad he felt, displeased he was after hearing the incident. So actions on the basis of personal opinions  can be wrong big time and Hazrat Usama [ra] pleaded prophet [sa] to ask for his forgiveness from the Lord.
 
There are some other similar instances too but i will have to find authentic hadith, only then i will paste here but above says a lot.

Edited by H3OO - 20 October 2008 at 5:30am
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Points: 2033 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2008 at 6:32am
Seeks !
 
I cant believe you said that, (that both of you are doing a great job)
 
Ok, so Sign Reader was relatively politer, and observed certain decorum, - he also was atleast using Quranic and Sunnah references, but other ppl have not been exactly been following decorum, they have exhibited highly unislamic, and unethical behaviour in expressing themselves.
 
And I'm appalled  - IC edits the word st**id - there it goes again, but they allow the "B" word!!??!! Especially when its been used to talk of someone's mother?
 
Since when did bieng rude, and throwing offences beome an effort? I'm sorry, but I just had to point that out. And to support such means, I believe - is just as bad.
 
The 'Ahmedi' here (even though, he says he is not one) here has shown more matureness in discussion, then all the 'Muslims' here, I'm afraid. And since its so very obvious to all the readers here, I have no qualms in pointing that out. And NO. Just because I said that, doesnt make an Ahmedi supporter. If anything, Im stanchly against deviants.
 
There were 2-3 ppl in on this discussion, and all they used, save a rare few, like I mentioned - simply used personal attacks and comments - thinking they were actually doing a service to Islam. When infact they werent.
 
What do you guys think? There were actually readers out there who said, wow, the Anti-H300s used so much logic and intellect - they must be right! If anything, you probably re-affirmed, the gun-toting, fatwa-calling, death-threat image of Muslims. I'm ashamed really.
 
And no, I'm not saying ANYTHING against Allah or His Prophet's Injunctions. If Allah and His Messenger, ordered death to the apostates, so be it. . . but that does not give the license to ordinary, individuals on a forum to issue threats. . . . .
 
 
 
 
 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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