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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Points: 1930 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2008 at 3:07pm
"Mohammad has absolutely no proof that he was speaking for GOD, just his say so.  Jesus had proof."
 
The Prophet Mohammed claimed to receive the revelation of The Quran from the angel Gabriel who brought the Word of God. The Prophet Mohammed never claimed to speak for God nor did He claim divinity of any type.
 
What is the proof that Jesus was speaking for God? What is the proof that Jesus was God? Jesus does not even meet the criteria of the prophecies of the Messiah laid out in your own texts of the Old Testament. That is why the Jews did not accept him. Except riding into Jerusalem on the donkeys, but that was a self-fulfilling prophesy.  He ruled no earthly kingdom, he was not of the seed of David, his name was not Immanuel, etc....
 
What PROOF is there that any of the Prophets or Messengers were receiving revelation from God?
 
 


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 28 April 2008 at 4:08pm
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Points: 1930 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2008 at 3:29pm
"Mohammad/Allah made laws about the rewards of this life- booty from war, how many wives you can have, control of people- how to pray, what to wear.  All tings of the physical world.
 
Jesus was all about the soul and next world with GOD."
 
First, this is offensive. Muslims do not not believe Jesus is God, but we do hold him in high esteem as a Prophet of God.    You are inferring here that Allah and the Prophet Mohammed  are one and the same by slashing. While you may believe a Prophet to be God, we do not.
 
Second, the Prophets before Jesus brought the Word of God instructing people how to live in this world in order to receive God's blessings, and the Prophet after Jesus did the same. In this regard the Prophet Mohammed was much more consistent with those before him.
Perhaps in the lost Gospel of Jesus there was practical instruction on how to live according to God's Word. We will never know since only portions of the Gospels were chosen to become the New Testament. Instead, people believe all they have to do is believe that Jesus is their savior, and "be good", a rather vague description of how to live. Made even the more vague by the assertion that the Laws God sent to man before no longer matter.
 
And if you can't "be good" then just ask Jesus to forgive you and he will.
 
Third, The Quran deals very descriptively and in great detail with matters of the soul. But since Muslims believe that every action we take will affect our soul, we might look at things a bit differently than you do. 



Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 28 April 2008 at 4:09pm
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Points: 1930 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2008 at 3:56pm
"I honor prophets, they have much to teach us, but they were sinful man just like all of us.  A person has to weed through the bad stuff to get to the good stuff."
 
Christianity teaches that Prophets and Messengers of God are extremely sinful. Islam does not teach this. Yes, they are men. But they are men of high regard and the best of character. Truthful, honest, and fearing God.  The best of examples for mankind, just as we believe the Prophet Mohammed to be.
 
 
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Ron: �Yes, if a Muslim uses the sayings or actions of the Prophet to define additional rules of worship or living that are not found in the Quran, then I believe that is what is meant by the phrase "setting up partners".�

Ron:  When Muslims follow the Sunnah of the Prophet they are not setting him up as a partner with God, however junior. They are trying to follow the example of a man who was a good God fearing/loving man.  What example is better to follow than a Messenger of God?   There is no worship involved, just an attempt to try to lead a life that is as close to God as possible.
 
There are some who may accept an Hadith or the Sunnah over the Quran, but these people may be ignorant or trying to make some personal gain by doing so.
 
 
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Points: 1930 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2008 at 4:05pm
"Believer: "Sorry but the Quran is not the living WORD of GOD.  It has no mind, body or soul."
 
The Quran is The Word of God.  There were men chosen by God to spread His Word and Message, and they were sent the Word of God as revelation, but they were not the "Living" Word of God, they were living by the Word of God.
 


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 28 April 2008 at 4:06pm
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2008 at 7:15pm

Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:

I  am not sure if I have understood what you mean by "using the sayings or actions of the Prophet to define additional rules of worship or living that are not found in the Quran".

And I am not sure what you don't understand, but let me put it this way.  If the Prophet makes a statement that is corroborated in the Quran, then it is superfluous and can be discarded.  If it is contradicted in the Quran, then it is obviously not authentic and should also be discarded.  And if it is not mentioned in the Quran at all, then either it is unimportant or the Quran is missing something important (which I think we can agree is impossible).

Quote After all, would you please show me where in Quran it is written that you shouldn�t care about the Prophet�s sayings or trust them unless Quran?

I didn't say that you shouldn't care about them.  What I said (or meant, anyway) was that they should not be regarded as doctrine, because by the logic I outlined above, everything in the hadith is either superfluous, incorrect or unimportant.  Read them as history, or for inspiration, or for spiritual strength.  Just don't read them as doctrine.  Don't look in them for things that you think are "missing" from the Quran.

I think the clearest statements warning against the hadith are the ones which warn against setting up partners with Allah.  However, I think Sura 45:6 is also quite interesting: "These [i.e. the Quran] are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications?"  I have read that the word "announcement" is actually "hadith" in the original Arabic.  Is that true?

Quote In Quran principles are mentioned and at the same time we are referred to the Prophet (to learn). All details are not necessary to be mentioned. If all details were supposed to be defined and mentioned in Quran, then a library had to be recited rather than a book.

And if a library had been required, do you think Allah could not have dictated it or Muhammad could not have recited it?  Allah does not "run out of words".  As the Quran (31:27) puts it: "And were every tree that is in the earth (made into) pens and the sea (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words of Allah would not come to an end."

Quote I have told many times that it is stated in Quran to follow the Prophet. Therefore, such a following doesn�t make a partnership at all. It is what Allah (swt) wills.

"Following the Prophet" doesn't make a partnership if it means following him in living according to the Quran.  It only makes a partnership if you regard Islam as partly defined by Allah via the Quran, and partly by Muhammad via the hadith.
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2008 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

Ron:  When Muslims follow the Sunnah of the Prophet they are not setting him up as a partner with God, however junior. They are trying to follow the example of a man who was a good God fearing/loving man.  What example is better to follow than a Messenger of God?   There is no worship involved, just an attempt to try to lead a life that is as close to God as possible.
 
I'm not so sure that there is no worship involved.  They deny it of course, but the adoration they express, and the "superpowers" they attribute to him (e.g., infallible, infinitely wise, perfectly virtuous, etc.) are pretty well indistinguishable from worship.
 
Yes, the Quran did say that Muhammad was an excellent example (though I don't think it said a "perfect" example); but that doesn't mean that all Muslims have to be exactly like him or even to worship Allah exactly like him.  A daisy is an excellent example of a flower, maybe even a perfect example; but that doesn't mean that all flowers have to be like daisies.
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Points: 1930 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2008 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

Ron:  When Muslims follow the Sunnah of the Prophet they are not setting him up as a partner with God, however junior. They are trying to follow the example of a man who was a good God fearing/loving man.  What example is better to follow than a Messenger of God?   There is no worship involved, just an attempt to try to lead a life that is as close to God as possible.
 
I'm not so sure that there is no worship involved.  They deny it of course, but the adoration they express, and the "superpowers" they attribute to him (e.g., infallible, infinitely wise, perfectly virtuous, etc.) are pretty well indistinguishable from worship.
 
Yes, the Quran did say that Muhammad was an excellent example (though I don't think it said a "perfect" example); but that doesn't mean that all Muslims have to be exactly like him or even to worship Allah exactly like him.  A daisy is an excellent example of a flower, maybe even a perfect example; but that doesn't mean that all flowers have to be like daisies.
 
Well, I am a Muslim and I do not worship the Prophet, nor any man.  The admiration expressed by most Muslims is the admiration expressed for all of the Prophets of God. They were chosen by God from all of mankind to spread His message. This makes them extraordinary, but not divine. As Muslims we should follow the example of all of the Prophets.
 
Only God knows if their intention is worship or not. We cannot judge, BUT Islamically it was made very clear by God, the Prophet himself, and the Sahaba, that he was just a man.
 
I don't know anyone who has said the Prophet was infallible. He was wise and virtuous, but he was not perfect. No man is...
 
 
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
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