no compulsion - the latest......

time to get back to some good old-fashioned sharia law, i think -(the way it used to be in the good old days, and the way the muslims want it to be again, may God preserve us from it)

4833
AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
Christians and Jews may testify concerning each other
The testimony of Zimmees with respect to each other is admissible, notwithstanding they be of different religions. Malik and Shafe'i have said that their evidence is absolutely inadmissible, because, as infidels are unjust, it is requisite to be slow in believing any thing they may advance, God having said (in the Koran) "WHEN AN UNJUST PERSON TELLS YOU ANY THING, BE SLOW IN BELIEVING HIM; "whence it is that the evidence of an infidel is not admitted concerning a Muslim; and consequently, that an infidel stands (in this particular) in the same predicament with an apostate. The arguments of our doctors upon this point are twofold. First, it is related of the prophet, that he permitted and held lawful the testimony of some Christians concerning others of their sect. Secondly, an infidel having power over himself, and his minor children, is on that account qualified to be a witness with regard to his faith is not destructive of this qualification, because he is supposed to abstain from every thing prohibited in his own religion, and falsehood is prohibited in every religion. It is otherwise with respect to an apostate, as he possesses no power, either over his own person, or over that of another; and it is also otherwise with respect to a Zimmee in relation to a Muslim, because a Zimmee has no power over the person of a Muslim. Besides, a Zimmee may be suspected of inventing falsehoods against a Muslim, from the hatred he bears to him on account of the superiority of the Muslims over him.
3197
AL-HEDAYA Vol. I (Hanafi Manual)
[Qualification of a witness]
It is necessary that the witnesses be ... Muslims; the evidence of infidels not being legal with respect to Muslims.

all comments welcome, as ever

abrah - you may rant about the alleged misdeeds of european imperialists as much as you like, rightly or wrongly, but that is not addressing the issue of compulsion in islam

well, abrah, having utterly exposed your assertion that "in the eyes of the judiciary there can be no bias" by my quotation from shariyah law, which muslims are plotting and scheming to enforce worldwide (may the Lord preserve his people from this evil), all you can do is repeat the tired old mantra "there is no compulsion in religion".  i shall come back soon to expose more of your claims

Fredi,

First, thanks a lot for having a new footnote.

You wrote: "Surah At-Tauba
29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.

now why should people be attacked just because they dont believe in islam?  why should they have to pay a special tax?  why should they have to feel subdued, just because they dont believe islam? - yet this is what the world faces if muslims get their way."

Good question and to find an answer, please just don't read V29 on it's own alone. Start from the beginning that is, V1 of Surah Taubah upto V29 and you will understand the true message, which I shall summarise instead of quoting all the verses and if you understood, thou shall not argue with me or with anyone any more!

Surah Taubah is also called Surah Ba-raa-ath. Taubah means to repent or desist, also and baraa-ath means a declaration or an announcement to free one from forced obligations, which is to declare that there cannot be any compromise anymore. Simply we are under no obligation to be nice to you when you are NOT!

An example of baraa-ath to make it easy to understand: Like GWB declared for a war based on true lies, "We are going alone" or "We are going on our own", after he had tired himself out with the world, which did not gave him any support. Anyway, his baraa-ath was wrongful as he wanted to invade at any cost. Please, no political discussions as that was an example only.   Let's come back to the topic.

The Surah starts by making an announcement from Allah and Messenger to all opposition who had treaties with Muslims but did not honour. They broke all treaties. They attacked Muslims whichever way they could, persecuted them and tortured them and waylaid them. It gives them a four months notice period like a warning that they should repent and mend their ways of brutally opposing Allah and the Messenger and take note of this declaration that Allah and Messenger treat those treaties as no more valid as they were the ones who broke all treaties. If they desist from fighting Allah and Messenger and repent it would be better for them, for they can no more carry on doing so and they cannot escape God's punishment.

It goes on to say: However, those with whom treaties were made and they honoured such treaties and did not openly help others against the Muslims, the Muslims were to completely honour the agreed period of the treaties. It goes on to tell the Muslims that when the 4-months warning period has expired, the Muslims were free and clear to fight the opposition, like they did, in whichever way they could but the Muslims are clearly told that if they repent and turn to God, start praying to God only and be charitable then leave them alone or make their life easy to live, for God Almighty is the Most Forgiving and the Most Merciful.

It then goes on to teach that if one of them seeks protection from you and wishes to stay in the land with you, then provide or grant him that full protection so that he hears the message of God and put him in a place where he feels safe and secure.

Now comes the argument: How can they, who fiercely oppose God and Messenger, expect to be granted a protection? For the protection can be granted only to those with whom Muslims had an agreement/Treaty made by the side of the Ka'aba, a very sacred place? As long as they remain straight and true to you, you shall remain straight and true to them, for God loves those who keep their words.

Here comes a sweet blow: How could they expect kindness from you?

If they had their way over you, they would not have cared a damn for any relationships or responsibility towards you, for in respect of believers in God, they just don't care. But if they turn to God, start praying to God and are charitable, then they are your brothers in religion. Then God says,"We explain this so that people understand."

And if they break their solemn oaths and pledges and revile your religion, making your life miserable, then fight these Deniers of the deniers or the extremists of Kufr because they have no regards for keeping the honour of their words and oaths.

Wouldn't you fight a people who broke all the pledges/treaties, and went to the extremes to force out the Messenger and they are the ones who started it all? Overawed by them or Fear them? You should stand up in awe and fear only of God, if you believe in God.

Fight such people and God will punish them through you, bringing them to humility and help you with victory over them, give you tranquility and remove the wrath from their hearts.

I am leaving V16 to V27 as I have explained most of the main points. Now we come to V28-29 which tell us that:

Such people are not clean meaning spiritually impure, so do not allow them to come near the Kaa'ba from this year onwards. And if you are worried that you will be hurt financially or economically and be impoverished, (by sanctions  ) or in a serious reduction of trade/business (Kaa'ba was at the cross-roads of all trading caravans and a commercial or livelihood centre for Meccans), then don't worry for God will bless and enrich you with Bounties.

Then comes every non-Muslim Polemic's most favourite verse   : V29 

So fight these people; (I have already explained what type of people and who were they) who do not believe in God, God's Messenger and the Last day of Judgement by God and those who do not forbid what God and the Messenger declared forbidden and do not follow the religion of Truth which God had given them also; till they are humbled and and willingly pay themselves some kind of surrender tax (war reparations, if you like the term  which looks nicer.)

Question: After reading above explanatory translation, please tell me now where are Muslims ordered to fight and do the unncessary killing?

I have put in a lot of sincere effort and time in explaining above, all in my own words, so if any one wishes to argue, please write point by point and don't copy the entire post back to me and throw in some two-lined silly statements.  

BR to you and all

BMZ

Edited by bmzsp