God�s commands

Ron: �If the Prophet makes a statement that is corroborated in the Quran, then it is superfluous and can be discarded.�

1-     As I told the Prophet doesn�t (for sure) make a statement or act that is contradicted in Quran.

2-     The prophet (as a human being) makes statements or has a life style which can not be found in Quran nor contradicts it. For example, the prophet used to wear clothing similar to people in that period of time of history and that place. The prophet had a hair (or beard) style of course and used to ride camel or horse and so on. Copying such a living style doesn�t mean one is following the prophet.

3-     I disagree when the prophet makes statements or acts in a way which is corroborated in Quran then it is superfluous. We can not conclude it even in our daily activities. A student doesn�t understand a section in a physics book. He/she goes to the teacher and asks about it and the teacher explains. The explanation is corroborated in the book but no one says it is superfluous.

Ron: �I think the clearest statements warning against the hadith are the ones which warn against setting up partners with Allah.  However, I think Sura 45:6 is also quite interesting: "These [i.e. the Quran] are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications?"  I have read that the word "announcement" is actually "hadith" in the original Arabic.  Is that true?�

Yes in Arabic it is Hadith (in Quran). Hadith in Arabic means �sayings� in general. Which sayings does it mean? Sayings after Allah and His communications (proof, manifestations or Aayaat in Arabic). What communications does it mean in this verse? Please read the verses from the first of the same Sura till the vers 6. The communications are defined there. Here is a translation:

 
[45:1]   H. M.

[45:2]   The revelation of the book from Allah, the Almighty, Most Wise.

[45:3]   The skies and the earth are full of communications (Aayaat) for the believers.

[45:4]   Also in your creation, and all animals that He scattered in the earth, there are communications (Aayaat) for people who are certain.

[45:5]   Also, the alternation of the night and the day, and what Allah sends down from the sky from sustenance with which He revives the earth after its death, and the manipulation of the winds; all these are communications (Aayaat) for people who understand.

Now after all of them counted to remind in the first verses, in the verse 6 it is asking an unbeliever: in what else, in what sayings after (rejecting) Allah and all His communications do you (unbeliever) want to believe? Is there anything else left which is not from Allah? Anything (you may want to believe in, instead of Allah) is already from Allah, from skies to the earth from night to day and from creation of yourself to all things. I think the name �Allah� is intentionally separated from manifestations (Aayaat) to emphasize that none of those manifestations or communications is Allah (swt).

No, He could do it but He didn�t. You see it is one book; every required thing is revealed in it but not in details and sometimes not very explicit. Otherwise, as you selected the right verse and mentioned it, the words of Allah would not come to an end.

Ron: �"Following the Prophet" doesn't make a partnership if it means following him in living according to the Quran.�

Ron: �Thank you for that explanation, but I don't see how it supports your position.�

It is simple. The Prophet never invites anybody to believe in anything instead of or together with Allah (swt) to worship. Obviously the word �Hadith� in the verse doesn�t come back to the Prophet�s Hadith. It comes back to any saying which invites people to believe in one or more of the manifestations (like the Golden Calf story) instead of Allah (Kofr) or together with Allah (Shirk). Not only the Prophet never committed either Kofr or Shirk in his own sayings and actions but also Allah (swt) recited all those Ayaat (46:1-5) to the Prophet (46:6) and then he had the mission from Allah (swt) to proclaim and recite them to people. Now the question is how anybody can be led to commit Kofr or Shirk by following this Prophet if he/she is sincerely and properly following? It contradicts the basic aim of the guidance and the prophethood. It is also written in Quran that the Prophet doesn�t say anything on his own desires but what We (Allah swt) send down to him.

It is in history whenever anybody wanted to call prophet Allah or to behave in a way to worship the prophet (and the same for the leaders in my belief) they used to strictly prevent those people to do so. There are many Hadiths in their sayings to warn people seriously avoiding Shirk and Kofr and there are many Hadiths in which they define different types of Shirk and Kofr in details and from Quran.

Ron: �the Quran, and our own intelligence�

Right, but I think the more complete expression is �The Prophets and our own intelligence�. Because you know there were many prophets who didn�t recite book and there are a few of them who recited books to people. And one of the miracles of the last prophet (and the most important and the main one I think) is Quran which also encouraged people to study of science and nature.

Ron: �Can you give me an example of something that is in the Quran, but not in details or not very explicit?  In other words, something that needs to be supplemented with the hadith?�

There are many. One time I gave the most appear examples about Salaat, Haj, Jihad and so on. More complicated, I remember we had this question:  who are �those who have authority among us� (mentioned in Quran)? As one reads Quran, they can never claim they comprehend it thoroughly.

Ron: �Well, in the first place it seems to me that "following the Prophet" was intended to apply only to Muhammad's contemporaries.  I don't think it's possible to follow a leader who is dead�

In Islamic ideology nobody becomes dead in soul. You can communicate with souls. The death is only like a bridge for our soul to journey from the state of this world to another. It is only for the body. Even the body can be revived after the death by Allah swt.  This is mentioned in Quran even in the same verses we reviewed (about the earth as a communication for those who understand 46:5).

Ron: �It seems clear to me that the statement is meant to say that in reciting the Quran, the Prophet is not speaking on his own behalf.�

I think it is much more general. There used to be many times in the Prophet�s contemporaries when people would come to him to ask general serious questions about verses of Quran, about the religion, past, future and so on. The prophet had to answer the questions and the answer shouldn�t had been to misguide people and deviate them from the right path, which tends them to Allah swt. This may be one of the reasons why even in Quran the prophet is the main reference to interpret Quran and to guide people towards Allah swt.

Ron: �It seems frankly ridiculous to think that he never said anything in his entire life except as directed by Allah.�

This discussion has different sides I think. Form one side; I think the Prophet had desires of course but he didn�t use them in contradictory way with Allah�s desires because he knew what satisfies Allah swt as the best slave (Abd). From another side, I think recitation or communication between Allah swt and his prophet would not be limited to Quran. Surely Allah swt used to communicate (whether through Gabriel or not) to his prophet and not necessarily limited to a time when a verse of Quran was supposed to be recited. About the example of �salt �, we can understand with our intelligence that �the act of asking for a salt� doesn�t have anything to do with misguiding people and it can be a simple desire of any human being. However, one may learn �how to do it� even in such a simple example.

Ron: �We don't have the Prophets directly from Allah.  We have only their writing and sayings, which have passed through innumerable intermediaries.�

I meant the prophets were created first and then the words and sentences (linguistically expressions) were sent to them. Even the Arabic language (the language of Quran) is created after human being. There had been a truth which was expressed in a book called Quran. That truth is created before and beyond any linguistic form and it was with all prophets, I believe.

myahya (May 2) wrote: Ron: �Well, in the first place it seems to me that "following the Prophet" was intended to apply only to Muhammad's contemporaries.  I don't think it's possible to follow a leader who is dead� In Islamic ideology nobody becomes dead in soul.

That's not much help for those of us who cannot communicate with the dead.  Let me rephrase: I don't think it's possible to follow a leader if you cannot communicate with him, nor he with you.

myahya (May 5) wrote: As I promised to give and example, here I have quoted an example about the time of Praying which was asked from the Prophet:

Thank you, myahya.  Unfortunately my ignorance of the specifics of Muslim prayer practice makes it difficult to understand your example.  However, I can see that Muhammad is adapting his instructions to suit the circumstances (delaying a prayer because it is too hot, for instance).  Again, that is the true function of a leader -- a function that he cannot perform for us here and now.

Frankly, I think you are confusing leadership with authority, and that is why I am becoming concerned about shirk.  To recognize Muhammad as a temporal leader, giving commands to his contemporaries, is legitimate; but to transform his words into timeless doctrine is to give him the kind of authority that properly belongs to Allah, and thus to make him a partner with Allah.  That's the way I see it anyway.