Burden of Proof

Apollos wrote: Since we agree that the existence of God is possible, would you also agree that raising someone from the dead is also possible? While this is currently an impossible event for humans to pull off, and certainly beyond the abilities of humans in 33 A.D., God � by the most minimal of definitions � could pull this off. I don�t know or care at this point if this event is a miracle or not. That is, maybe it is an invasion of natural laws or maybe it is just advanced knowledge of our natural laws. Either way, it is something humans can�t do and God � if He exists � could do. Do we agree on this?

Until recently, a person was considered dead once his/her heart stopped.  Now we know that CPR, administered soon enough, can restart the heart and bring the patient back.  So based on the standards of a century ago, we can already raise someone from the dead.

I believe that the current standard for death is a flat EEG.  Once brain activity stops, we consider the patient dead.  I have no doubt that in the next few decades we will find ways to restart the brain, at least in some cases.  There are already wealthy people with incurable diseases who are opting for cryogenic preservation after death, with the expectation that they will be brought back to life once a cure is found for their illness.

So no, I'm not sure I agree with you.  It depends on how you define death, and whether you mean impossible in principle or just impossible with current knowledge and technology.

I appreciate your other suggestions for proving God�s existence but I suggest to you that these are not universal criteria. I have heard a host of other examples from skeptics and the only thing they seem to share is being subjective.

If you ask me next week I'll probably give you a completely different list of criteria, but that doesn't mean that I would no longer be convinced by the ones I am offering now, or that other skeptics' suggestions wouldn't also convince me.

Are you willing to look at the historical facts on the resurrection claim and see where they lead?

I'm always willing to look, but frankly I think you're wasting your time.  Just how dead was Jesus?  Had he stopped breathing?  Did anyone even check?  Had his heart stopped?  Was he brain-dead?  Had decomposition begun?  We don't know, and it's hard to imagine how we ever could know.  Without any kind of physical evidence, all we have is a two thousand year old story.  The fact that a great many people heard the story, repeated it and perhaps wrote it down doesn't really prove anything.

Ron Webb wrote: Until recently, a person was considered dead once his/her heart stopped.  Now we know that CPR, administered soon enough, can restart the heart and bring the patient back.  So based on the standards of a century ago, we can already raise someone from the dead. I believe that the current standard for death is a flat EEG.  Once brain activity stops, we consider the patient dead.  I have no doubt that in the next few decades we will find ways to restart the brain, at least in some cases.  There are already wealthy people with incurable diseases who are opting for cryogenic preservation after death, with the expectation that they will be brought back to life once a cure is found for their illness. So no, I'm not sure I agree with you.  It depends on how you define death, and whether you mean impossible in principle or just impossible with current knowledge and technology. I mean really dead - brain waves and all.   Are you willing to look at the historical facts on the resurrection claim and see where they lead? I'm always willing to look, but frankly I think you're wasting your time.  Just how dead was Jesus?  Had he stopped breathing?  Did anyone even check?  Had his heart stopped?  Was he brain-dead?  Had decomposition begun?  We don't know, and it's hard to imagine how we ever could know.  Without any kind of physical evidence, all we have is a two thousand year old story.  The fact that a great many people heard the story, repeated it and perhaps wrote it down doesn't really prove anything.

Ron,

I will list the major reasons we know that Jesus was dead. And when I say �we�, I am not just referring to Christians. The consensus of skeptical historians is that Jesus died by crucifixion under Pontius Pilate.

1.      The disciples of Jesus publicly proclaimed their accounts in the midst of contemporaries who would have known the facts if they were otherwise. Though the Jews objected to the part about Jesus rising from the dead, they never claimed he had not died. They had great motivation to do so since these followers of Jesus were drawing people away from historical Judaism.

2.      The same scenario applied to the Romans who would have known if Jesus was not dead. They greatly disliked the impact Christians were having on the Roman Empire and had great motive and ability to squash the story if they thought Jesus had not died.

3.      Carrying on in the tradition of early Jewish anti-Christian thought, the Toledoth Jesu purports that Jesus' body was stolen away. While no body has ever been produced, these claims acknowledge that contemporary enemies of Christians believed Jesus had died and the tomb where he was laid was found empty.  

4.      Tacitus ( ca. 55-120 A.D.) a Roman historian, states that "Christus" the founder of Christianity suffered death at the hands of Pontius Pilate but this only stopped the "superstition" for a short while.

5.      Thallus (ca. 52 A.D.) tried to explain away the darkness that accompanied Jesus' death as an eclipse of the sun. Obviously, Jesus' crucifix­ion and the resurrection message promoted by the disciples immediately after Christ's death was accepted common knowledge to those alive at the time.

6.      Josephus (b. 37 A.D.) mentions the crucifixion of Jesus (Antiquities 18, chapter 3). Even though some believe the passage has been added to by Christians in later years, the underlined portion below is judged authentic by most scholars: Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, [if it be lawful to call him a man;] for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher [of such men as receive the truth with pleasure,] He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. [He was the Christ.] And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; [for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.] And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

7.      The details and history of crucifixion show that people didn�t survive this form of execution. The Romans were good at it and they didn�t make such mistakes. But let�s imagine they did this one time. This meant Jesus was nailed to a cross as various eyewitnesses attest, he suffered incredible blood loss, paralysis of the upper body and overall shock before his legs were broken or a sword was put through his side. If he had survived all this (something there is no natural explanation for), he had to look dead to a Roman soldier who was experienced at ascertaining such things. He then had to stay alive while others made a tomb ready, wrapped him tightly in burial cloths, and placed him in a cold dark tomb. He would have had about hundred pounds of burial spices on top of him, and a large stone sealing off the entrance where guards were probably posted. If he somehow survived all this for several days without medical attention, food or water (something there is no natural explanation for) he had to somehow get out of the bindings, out from under the heavy spices, and out of the  tomb - by himself. Once outside he had to appear healthy and robust for the disciples needed to see him as the Lord of Life, not a pale bleeding, bruised and near dead man. The swoon theory is so unbelievable that even people who are determined to reject the resurrection as real, opt for other theories rather than this one.