Who is the comforter |
Post Reply | Page <1 1011121314> |
Author | ||||||||||||||
JerryMyers
Groupie Joined: 21 September 2016 Status: Offline Points: 65 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||
The doctrine of original sin explained to me ??!! Hardly ! But you did confirm how confused you are about sin ! Anyway, let’s go thru the verses you quoted above which you said (or implied) to ‘explain’ original sin – “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far away” – Proverbs 22:15 This is not about inheriting sin from Adam, but, it’s saying foolishness are (normally) found in children, but discipline can straighten them up. In other words, discipline have to be taught at a young age if not, the foolishness (which is normal expectation in children) will dwell in them and continue into their adulthood. “If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” – Luke 11:13 - How is this about original sin ?? Care to explain ? “The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one”. – Psalm 14:2-3 Try reading in context from verse 1 – ‘The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good”’. So, Psalm 14:2-3, in general, is also referring to those who do not believe in God, which David refer to as fools, it's NOT a reference to whole mankind. So, how could Psalm 14:2-3 be about original sin when it's addressed only to those who do not believe in God, NOT whole mankind ! Do you believe in God, 2Acts ?? “The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done” – Genesis 8:21 ‘Evil’ here is a reference to disobeying God which is what humans are incline to do because to them to obey all of God’s Commands is impossible to do. Truth is it's not impossible as only those who are strong-willed, discipline, have total faith in God Almighty and truly understand God’s intention for mankind existence can abide by all of His Commands. Yes, the inclination to disobey God is from childhood and that’s why Proverbs 22:15 talks about ‘the rod of discipline’ can drive away the folly in children as children are normally foolish (in their choices, decisions) due to the fact that their minds have not been fully developed to understand good and evil. Again, Genesis 8:21 is not about original sin and moreover, it clearly said “every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood” NOT ‘from birth’ meaning, everyone is born perfect, sinless but it’s our upbringing, the environment, the company we keep, etc, that eventually will determine whether we maintain this state of perfection or not.
No, I am not wrong but you are. When Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25), he was responding to Martha who had said earlier she knew her brother will rise again at the last day, that is, the day of the Resurrection. This tell us that Jesus, in saying “I am the resurrection” was also referring to the Day of the Resurrection of the last day as he was responding to Martha’s statement. There’s not a single verse in the whole passage of John 11 that implied Martha was referring to Jesus’ 'death and resurrection’ and Jesus was responding accordingly to that. As for John 12:44-50, where did you see Jesus was saying or implying he came to die for the sins of mankind ?? Care to point that out ?? |
||||||||||||||
JerryMyers
Groupie Joined: 21 September 2016 Status: Offline Points: 65 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||
Maybe. Then, explain how did Christians come to believe Jesus is of the same substance as God and in fact, is THE Son of God too ? |
||||||||||||||
JerryMyers
Groupie Joined: 21 September 2016 Status: Offline Points: 65 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||
Maybe you misunderstood me. When I said ‘most Muslims are Muslim by design not personal choice', I mean they are Muslims by birth because they are born into a Muslim family. The same thing can be said of most Christians too. ‘By personal choice’ would mean that you are Muslim because you had study Islam and Christianity (and others) thoroughly and realized rationally, despite what scholars had said, God is ONLY ONE and no man can claim to be God or equate himself to God. So, it’s not about ‘fear of apostasy’, but it’s about rational thinking based on what God said in the Quran and based on what Jesus really said in the Bible and not about what other people said.
Yes, maybe so, but, here’s where you can see the cunning master plan of Satan and the subtle execution of that master plan. The main objective of Satan is to bring mankind away from God Almighty. With Christianity, Satan managed to do just that – he succeeded to bring majority of Christians to worship a man as God when they should be worshiping only God Almighty. While Satan was unsuccessful to do that with Muslims, he succeeded in drawing majority of them away from truly following the life God Almighty want mankind to live by, that is, live harmoniously and prosperously, be just, no corruptions, etc. Thus, it's not surprising today, you see a more ‘Islamic’ way of life in non-Muslim majority countries than you see in Muslim-majority countries. To quote an Egyptian jurist, Muhammad Abduh (1849-1905) – “I went to the West and saw Islam, but no Muslims; I got back to the East and saw Muslims, but not Islam”. So, what does this all tell us ? It tells us Muslims need to go back to the true teaching of the Quran on the administration of community living, human relationship, and Christians need to go back to the true teaching of Jesus in understanding who Jesus Christ really is and his relationship with God Almighty. |
||||||||||||||
JerryMyers
Groupie Joined: 21 September 2016 Status: Offline Points: 65 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||
Hi jp the Unitarian,
Wow, that’s a pretty long response ! Anyway, lets go thru them :
The knowledge of good and evil is what God had incorporated into man (just like the 5, or 6, senses we are born with) and with that knowledge, man now can make choices when confronted with such circumstances which requires them to choose. Sin is a choice and you cannot inherit a choice. God created man in His Image, meaning, mankind is born perfect and sinless. We sin when we choose to go against God’s Command. Adam sinned because he chose to go against God’s Command not to eat from that tree. The lesson from both Genesis 2:17 and Genesis 3:22 is that if you disobeyed God’s Command, then, you will eventually be in the condemnation of hell which was referred here as ‘death’ or ‘certainly die’ in Genesis 2:17.
Well, that Adam and Eve chose ‘death’ over ‘eternal life’ would be your personal opinion as Adam never claimed so, nor did any prophet or God Almighty Himself had ever said so of Adam.
The creation of Adam and Eve was to procreate mankind as earth was created to be inhibited (Isaiah 45:18), and thus, had Adam chose to obey God, man would still sin as Adam, Eve and each of us are responsible and accountable for our own choices and decisions. Did Jesus ever speak of original sin ?? Never did. Even when referring to Adam and Eve, Jesus never mentioned about man inheriting sin from Adam (Matthew 19:4-5). Why ? Because original sin is a man-made doctrine, not from God Almighty.
Well, Mark 12:25 CLEARLY said ‘For when they rise from the dead,’ meaning the verse was talking about the last day, the Day of Resur-rection when all the dead will be resurrected – a time when we are no longer in our physical forms as we understand today but instead, we will be like angels in heaven. (Please note that ‘be like angels’ does not mean we become angels as we will still be judged for our deeds or misdeeds after the resurrection).
Well, let me repeat what I said - "and no man can redeem or die for another man’s sin as only God Almighty can forgive your sin." Hebrew 9:7, Hebrew 9:13 and Hebrew 9:14 you quoted above are NOT the words of God Almighty or even the words of Jesus Christ, so, who do you follow - God Almighty, His prophet, Jesus Christ or the words of others ?? So, let me address what Jesus really said in Mark 2:10 which you quoted – “But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” To understand that verse, you need to read that verse in its context. Firstly, the people brought the paralyzed man to Jesus for him to heal the man, NOT to ask Jesus for the forgiveness of the man’s sins. So, why did Jesus said to the paralyzed man, “Your sins are forgiven” ?? Jesus said that because the society’s belief of that time (and even to-day in some societies) was that any misfortune, illness or any other bad omens that befall on them happened because they have sinned. This is obvious as, if Jesus was really forgiving the man’s sins, then why did Jesus need to ask them which is easier to say to the para-lyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk ?” ?? Obviously, in the context of that society’s belief, it’s easier to say “your sins are forgiven” as the paralyzed man believed his paralysis was the punishment for his sins. However, we also know that with God’s Will and permission, Jesus is given the power to heal so, in the context of that society’s belief, Jesus said “But I want you to know that the son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” NOT because he was really forgiving the sins of the paralyzed man, but he wanted the man to believe that he’s no longer paralyzed because his sins have been forgiven. Today, this form of treatment is called ‘the placebo effect’ and medical practitioners today are beginning to see the effectiveness of ‘the placebo effect’ treatment. Who would have thought that 2000 years ago, Jesus was already applying the ‘placebo effect’ to heal his believers ?
Jesus saved the people of his time (or the world of his time) thru his preaching and his teaching. So, Jesus was not lying when he said those who listen to his words will be saved. It’s like a medical professor telling his students that they will be successful doctors in the future if they listen him. The professor cannot guarantee the success of all his students but he can only impart his medical knowledge to his students. Only his students can ensure their own success and that is, by listening to him. Similarly, Jesus cannot save his people as he too can only preach and teach what he heard from God Almighty. Only the people of his times can save themselves ONLY if they listen to his words.
You live thru a man by adhering to his principles, his teaching and emulating his way of life. So, how can you say you are living thru Jesus when Jesus never preached the doctrine of original sin ??
What animal sacrifices that Muslims carry out are you referring to ?? Perhaps you are referring to the sacrifices of goats/cows on Eid-Adha ??
Well, that’s the wrong interpretation of Surah Al’Imran 3:50. Where did you get that from ?? The phrase "(I have come to you), to attest the Law (the Torah) which was before me” tells us that Jesus preached the same faith as that preached earlier by Moses and the other prophets. This is evidenced by the statements of the existing gospels: According to Matthew, in his Sermon on the Mount the Messiah categorically declared: 'Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them' (Matthew 5: 17). And when a Jewish lawyer enquired: 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?', Jesus replied: 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great-est and the first commandment. And a second is like it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. These two commandments formed the foundation of the law and the preaching of all the prophets. Nothing on original sin. As for “And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) for-bidden to you” simply means that Jesus would abolish the prohibitive innovations which had infiltrated the original Divine Law. These were the results of the superstitions of their ignorant commoners, the ex-tremism of their so-called righteousness. In determining what is lawful and unlawful, Jesus would be guided by the injunctions of God and not by the inventions of human beings – guess that’s why Jesus nev-er preached trinity or original sin because he was never divinely guid-ed to do so.
Again, as I always said, Hebrew 9:11-12 are NOT the words of God Almighty or His prophet, Jesus Christ. So, who do you really listen to and follow ??
There is only one resurrection and that is on the Day of Resurrection when all the dead will be brought to life to be judged. Jesus himself, when speaking of resurrection is also referring to the Day of Resur-rection. In saying he will be raised on the third day, Jesus was in fact, referring to the Old Scripture – “After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live before Him” – Hosea 6:2. The passage of Hosea 6 was about resurrection and calling the Israelites to repent and return to God Almighty. Jesus, in referring to Hosea 6:2 was also appealing to his people to repent and return to God Almighty.
If you read Quran Al’ Nisa 4:159 carefully, you will note that it CLEARLY said “on the Day of Judgment, he (Jesus) will be a witness AGAINST them”. The key phrase here is “a witness AGAINST them’. This, in fact, is in line with what Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23 – “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”. In other words, Jesus was saying, firstly, on that day (Judgment Day) he will be a witness AGAINST those who called him ‘Lord’ because they worship him as God when he never claimed to be God or God the Son. Secondly, he will also be witness AGAINST those who prophesy and drive out demons in his name because he NEVER told them to do such things. Thirdly, Jesus CLEARLY said ‘only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven (will enter the kingdom of heaven)’. Certainly Jesus NEVER said only those who believe he died for their sins and rose again will enter the kingdom of heaven – these are NOT the preaching of Jesus Christ. So, listen to Jesus’ words, NOT other people’s words. By the way, Acts 17:31 are NOT the words of Jesus nor are they the words of God Almighty.
Well, if you want to quote Quran Al Imran 3:55, then, you must also believe that Jesus was not killed nor crucified but he was saved by God Almighty who raised Jesus up to Himself. You must also believe that Jesus was cleared of all falsehoods, with the Revelation of the Quran to Muhammad, by those who blasphemed against Jesus that he claimed to be God and he died for all mankind sins when there’s only one true God and only He can forgive and redeem man’s sin. As for “I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection”, it simply means those (the people of Jesus’ time) who follow their respective prophet (in this case, Jesus) are always made and seen superior to God Almighty compared to the unbelievers who reject faith. In other words, those who follow their respective prophets are better off than those who reject faith the prophet of their times. Likewise, in Moses’ times, those who follow Moses are seen and made superior than those who reject him.
Well, ‘the Book’ mentioned in Quran Surah Al Imran 3:3 and 3:7 is actually referencing to the Quran, NOT the gospel or the Bible of today. In the Quran, God revealed to Muhammad that truly it was Him who had sent the earlier Scriptures (which form the basic foundation of the Quran) – the Psalms (to David), the Torah (to Moses) and the Gospel (to Jesus). In other words, God Almighty, in the Quran, is only confirming the origins of these earlier Books or Scriptures and the authenticity of those Scriptures at that time, He was NOT confirming the authenticity of the Bible today which most Christians wrongly believed. The gospels that was canonized into the Bible today are NOT the gospel that was given to Jesus. There are many other gospels not canonized into the Bible of today. Surely, you realized that. |
||||||||||||||
JerryMyers
Groupie Joined: 21 September 2016 Status: Offline Points: 65 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||
What do you mean ‘explain to God’??!! And why would you think the virgin birth of Jesus would be a waste of time to God ??
Yes, virgin birth is only applicable to Jesus and never will happen again and maybe that’s why Jesus is said to be the first and the last as he’s the first to be of virgin birth and he will be the last of such birth.
Well, I have already explained that – the virgin birth (that is, birth of a child without a male intervention) is a testimony that we are all witnesses to the Greatness of God Almighty’s Creative Power. He created Adam without a man nor a woman. He created Eve from a man (that is, without a woman). He created mankind with a man and a woman and finally He created Jesus without a man. Isn’t that a display of God’s Greatness in His Creation of man ?? Why deny God’s Greatness ??
The phrase "a virgin" which we find in the English-translated Bibles today does not appear in the original Hebrew text. The word used is 'almah’ meaning "a young woman of marriageable age". The Hebrew word for "virgin" is ‘bthuwlah’. When the Hebrew text was translated into Greek in the NT, it uses the word ‘parthenos’, which has a dual meaning; a young girl or a virgin. The translators have chosen the latter for obvious reasons. More recent and accurate versions of the Bible such as the Revised Standard Version present this verse as follows: "Therefore, the Lord Himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel"Isaiah 7:14 (RSV). So, how sure are you Isaiah 7:14 was referring to the virgin birth Jesus ?? By the way, Immanuel means ‘God is with us’. That, however, does not mean anyone who’s called ‘Immanuel’ is God because the child is called God with us. Likewise, Ishmael means ‘God hears’ but that again does not mean anyone named ‘Ishmael’ is God because the child is called God hears.
Isn’t that contradictory to Isaiah 7:14 ?? Why is the child now called ‘Jesus’ and not ‘Immanuel’ as so-prophesized in Isaiah 7:14 ?? So, how sure are you Isaiah 7:14 was referring to the virgin birth of Jesus ??
Which part of Isaiah 9:6 that imply Jesus is God ?? Was it the phrase ‘The Mighty God’ ?? The Hebrew word ‘el’ from which the phrase ‘God’ in Isaiah 9:6 was translated from, does NOT always refer to God Almighty, but can also refer to a human ruler. The English language translators capitalized the letter ‘G’ to imply Jesus is God when he is not. In fact, the Bible lexicon wrote the Hebrew word for ‘God’ in Isaiah 9:6 as just ‘el’, NOT ‘El’ - http://biblehub.com/lexicon/isaiah/9-6.htm A clear example that the Hebrew word “el” in Isaiah 9:6 can be used of powerful earthly rulers is Ezekiel 31:11, which was referring to the Babylonian king. If calling the Messiah ‘el’ made him God, then the Babylonian king would also be God. Or was it the phrase ‘everlasting Father’ ?? Didn’t the Bible tell us that there’s only ONE Father who is in the heaven and no one on earth should be called ‘Father’ that is, as in the same meaning as God (see Matthew 23:9) ?? Obviously, ‘everlasting Father’ for Jesus in Isaiah 9:6 could not be a reference to God who’s in the heaven. The Hebrew word for ‘Father’ is 'ab’ and in this context it is a noun; Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon definitions for this word are as follows: 1) The father of an individual 2) Used of God as Father of His people 3) The head or the founder of a household, a group, a family, or a clan 4) An ancestor a) A grandfather, the forefathers - of a person b) Used of people (in general) 5) An originator or patron of a class, profession, or art 6) Used of a producer, a generator (figuratively) 7) Used of benevolence and of protection (figuratively) 8) Used as a term of respect and honor 9) A ruler or a chief In the context of Isaiah 9:6, definition #9 makes more sense because it is consistent with the rest of the verse; Isaiah 9:6 seems to portray the Messiah as an authoritative ruler that has been delegated some decision making power. By combining the two nouns (everlasting, Father), and using the context of Isaiah 9:7 which reads, “…. and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever,” we see Jesus sits on David’s throne at a certain point in time, and from that point onward establishes justice forever (Peremptory Terminus). ‘…and establish with judgment and justice’ would mean Jesus laid down the basic understanding and mechanism of judgment and justice which would be the everlasting guidelines to be followed by others from that point forward. So, when you understand Isaiah 9:6 in its proper context and interpretation, there’s no indication at all that imply Jesus is God. |
||||||||||||||
jp the unitarian
Newbie Joined: 25 May 2018 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 13 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||
Well Jerry let's tackle all the inconsistencies in your response, I have to cut it into sections or else it would be too long, starting with the first section, your response is underlined
The knowledge of good and evil is
what God had incorporated into man (just like the 5, or 6, senses we
are born with) and with that knowledge, man now can make choices when
confronted with such circumstances which requires them to choose. Sin
is a choice and you cannot inherit a choice. God created man in His
Image, meaning, mankind is born perfect and sinless. We sin when we
choose to go against God’s Command. Adam sinned because he chose to
go against God’s Command not to eat from that tree.
OK we will start with the first inconsistency you say
The knowledge of good and evil is what God had incorporated into man (
the knowledge of Good and Evil was incorporated into man? Then why would Yehovah put a tree of that knowledge there to begin with? This alone makes no sense whatsoever. Even worse your own contradiction is contradicted by the Bible.
Before the knowledge of good and evil they were not ashamed of their nakedness
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, yet they were not ashamed. (TS98)
After eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they covered themselves because they were now aware and ashamed of their nakedness.
Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made loin coverings for themselves. (TS98)
So your whole contention falls, proven wrong by the Bible, before the fall Adam and Eve had no knowledge of their nakedness, after having eaten of the tree (the fall) they did, now they KNEW, notice how it says now "they knew" this , they did not before. So no, humans in the beginning did not have the knowledge of good and Evil. Notice they were not ashamed of what they had done, they were ashamed of being naked.. And another verse which shows your argument is nonsensical
Gen 3:22 And יהוה Elohim said, “See, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...” (TS98)
The man BECAME like one of us says Yehovah, he was not built like that, this happened when he ate from the tree, he BECAME like Yehovah and knew Good and Evil.
2nd inconsistency
You say
you cannot inherit a choice.
First of all there is nothing said about inheriting a choice, neither do I support that, Adam and Eve were not given the ability to chose, they had it, they were given the knowledge of good and Evil, they now had the knowledge to chose and decide for themselves what is good or Evil, and not learn it from Yehovah the only perfect teacher. This is the separation from Yehovah, we do not follow his guidance of good or Evil and this leads to death, we simply cannot, because we are separated from Yehovah and cannot communicate with Yehovah for him to tell us where our decisions will lead. And yes there are examples of this in the bible look at
Matt 16:21 From that time יהושע began to show to His taught ones that it was necessary for Him to go to Yerushalayim, and to suffer much from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and to be raised again the third day. (TS98) Matt 16:22 And Kĕpha took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Be kind to Yourself, Master, this shall not be to You!” (TS98) Matt 16:23 But He turned and said to Kĕpha, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling-block to Me, FOR YOUR THOUGHTS ARE NOT THOSE OF ELOHIM, BUT THOSE OF MEN.” (TS98)
In these we see Yeshua telling his apostles that he must go to Jerusalem to suffer and be killed and raised again the third day, Peter did not want this to happen he certainly wanted to protect his friend, to this kind deed Peter get's called Satan, why? Because he was deciding for himself what was good and what was evil, but his decision was not God's will, no Jerry it was God's will that Yeshua go to the cross to die so that he offer himself as the sacrifice for our sin and then Yehovah could resurrect him.
Yeshua could hear Yehovah and he listened, this is how he corrected the error of Adam, but in order to correct this he had to remain sinless for all his life or he would have failed and not be able to pay for this sin.
Had they (Adam and Eve) not sinned, they would have remained innocent and unaware of their nakedness, and would have followed Yehovah always, and without sin.
3rd inconsistency
God created man in His Image, meaning, mankind is born perfect and sinless.
God created man in his own image sinless, not perfect which is evident from Adam and Eve, the image of God has nothing to do with perfection. If the image of God would have been perfect then Adam and Eve would not have sinned. Man on the other hand is BORN not created like Adam, therefore in birth we inherit the same nature as our fallen father Adam, and inherit the nature of the knowledge of good and evil and death. The image of God is something else and it would require for you to have a basic understanding of the Kingdom, but since you do not and seem unwilling to learn I won't waste my time. You would first have to understand that the comforter is the spirit of truth, which is Yehovah but with a twist, but anyways.
4th inconsistency
then, you will eventually be in the condemnation of hell which was referred here as ‘death’ or ‘certainly die’
Sorry Jerry that is not what the bible says, there is no reference to going to hell whatsoever here, it says you will CERTAINLY DIE, this means it is certain you will die, what it says here is that death is certain, and this is true, you will die eventually, no matter how good you are. Don't add to the word Jerry that is instant condemnation, stick to what is said here, and that is, you will die, it ends there.
Let's see Yehovah said "if you eat of it you will certainly die", could this mean if you eat of that tree you will die, I think even a 5 year old could figure that one out. So no it is not my personal opinion and yes Yehovah did tell them that they would die, that he did not tell them that they had eternal life with the other tree, is not certain and makes absolutely no difference, he simply told them they could eat of any tree except one. It is evident then that Adam's decision was a decision between LIFE and DEATH. The fact is clear he told them they would die if they ate of that one tree, that should have been enough, for him and for you to understand. The thing is Yehovah did tell us
Gen 3:22 The LORD God said, “Since man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil, he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever.” (HCSB)
Live forever, simple, eternal life with the other tree.
|
||||||||||||||
jp the unitarian
Newbie Joined: 25 May 2018 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 13 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||
The creation of Adam and Eve was to procreate mankind as earth was created to be inhibited (Isaiah 45:18), and thus, had Adam chose to obey God, man would still sin as Adam, Eve and each of us are responsible and accountable for our own choices and decisions. Did Jesus ever speak of original sin ?? Never did. Even when referring to Adam and Eve, Jesus never mentioned about man inheriting sin from Adam (Matthew 19:4-5). Why ? Because original sin is a man-made doctrine, not from God Almighty.
First notion The creation of Adam and Eve was to procreate mankind as earth was created to be inhibited (Isaiah 45:18), Adam and Eve were there and so were animals, the earth was inhabited, so what is your point. The text does not say how many just inhabited.
Adam and eve were created to procreate, well we could also say lions were made to eat meat but then the Bible says all animals were to eat green herbs in the beginning, including lions
Gen 1:29 And Elohim said, “See, I have given you every plant that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed, TO YOU IT IS FOR FOOD. (TS98) Gen 1:30 “And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the heavens, and to every creeping creature on the earth, in which there is life, EVERY GREEN PLANT IS FOR FOOD.” And it came to be so. (TS98)
So apparently you cannot compare the paradise to the fallen earth because everything changed after the fall. Lions and other predators existed in the creation yet were to eat only green plants, there is no death in paradise, and if you have immortals procreating, then soon you will have no room. Yehovah never told Adam and Eve that they would die, except by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil. In the beginning Adam and Eve were like children, look at children Jerry do they have sexual impulses? No not at all, children are innocent, and Lions and other predators did not eat other animals, even if that was what they were made for, so in paradise there is no death, and adults in paradise are like children,
Matt 18:3 And he said: “Amen I say to you, unless you change and become like little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (CPDV)
As Yeshua says if you do not become like little children, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. so there is no certainty here that they would have procreated while in the garden, it is even doubtful. The resurrection body is much like the created body both are enabled to live by Yehovah, the only difference is the created Body was formed by Yehovah directly of the earth, the resurrected body is procreated and resurrected by Yehovah.
Second problem
and thus, had Adam chose to obey God, man would still sin as Adam, Eve and each of us are responsible and accountable for our own choices and decisions.
To begin with if Adam and Eve had not sinned and obeyed Yehovah they would have remained in paradise, they were thrown out of the garden because they sinned
Gen 3:23 so יהוה Elohim sent him out of the garden of Ěḏen TO TILL THE GROUND from which he was taken, (TS98) Gen 3:24 and He drove the man out. And HE PLACED KERUḆIM AT THE EAST OF THE GARDEN OF ĚḎEN, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. (TS98)
so it is clearly evident you cannot remain in paradise and sin. Since Adam and Eve were thrown out of paradise because they sinned. So you cannot be in paradise if you sin, and if you sin it is because you have the nature of the knowledge of good and evil. So you're whole fantasy here does not work with the logic of the Bible
Did Jesus ever speak of original sin ?? Never did. Even when referring to Adam and Eve, Jesus never mentioned about man inheriting sin from Adam (Matthew 19:4-5)
You find yourself repeating this same old contention, but the fact that Adam sinned is what causes death, but Yeshua was speaking to Jews who already knew this teaching there was no need to tell them what they already knew. This was the apostles Job, this is why they were sent out as witnesses to tell this teaching to the gentiles.
Rom 5:12 For this reason, EVEN AS THROUGH ONE MAN SIN DID ENTER INTO THE WORLD, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned – (TS98) Rom 5:13 for until the Torah, sin was in the world, but sin is not reckoned when there is no Torah. (TS98) Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Aḏam until Mosheh, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Aḏam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (TS98)
Sin entered the world by one man Adam, and death reigned up until Moses, why was death not reining after Moses? Because Yehovah had the temple built, so sacrificial animals could be offered to atone for sin.
Now if you want to try and reject Paul's words here I would advise you that Paul as well as Peter raised people from the dead and healed people, giving clear signs that they were chosen of Yehovah. They also were approved By Yeshua.
Acts 9:10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” (ESV2011) Acts 9:11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, (ESV2011) Acts 9:12 and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” (ESV2011) Acts 9:13 But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. (ESV2011) Acts 9:14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” (ESV2011) Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. (ESV2011)
This is Yeshua speaking to Ananias telling him that Paul is a chosen one. If you reject Paul you also reject Yeshua and Yehovah and render yourself liable to the judgment of 4:159, because you are speaking a falsehood of Yeshua 3:55.
And also People were taking Paul's clothes and were being healed just by touching his clothes, these Jerry are CLEAR SIGNS, simple as that.
Acts 19:11 And God was accomplishing powerful and uncommon miracles by the hand of Paul, (CPDV) Acts 19:12 so much so that even when small cloths and wrappings were brought from his body to the sick, the illnesses withdrew from them and the wicked spirits departed. (CPDV) Acts 19:13 Then, even some of the traveling Jewish exorcists had attempted to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “I bind you by oath through Jesus, whom Paul preaches.” (CPDV)
Even the demons know Paul
Acts 19:14 And there were certain Jews, the seven sons of Sceva, leaders among the priests, who were acting in this way. (CPDV) Acts 19:15 But a wicked spirit responded by saying to them: “Jesus I know, and Paul I know. But who are you?” (CPDV)
So now getting back on track, Yehovah created the law for temple sacrifices to clear people of their sins. This is why the temple was built and that is the law of Moses .
Exod 30:10 “And Aharon shall make atonement upon its horns once a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonement – once a year he makes atonement upon it throughout your generations. It is most set-apart to יהוה.” (TS98)
Lev 1:3 ‘If his offering is a burnt offering of the herd, let him bring a male, a perfect one. Let him bring it at the door of the Tent of Meeting, for his acceptance before יהוה. (TS98) Lev 1:4 ‘And he shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him. (TS98) Lev 1:5 ‘And he shall slaughter the bull before יהוה. And the sons of Aharon, the priests, shall bring the blood and sprinkle the blood all around on the altar which is at the door of the Tent of Meeting. (TS98)
the blood of animals can atone for sin but not man's, but this I have already answered, so now figure out why animals blood can clear you of sin but not a man's. Right here Jerry you have a problem man is the image and the glory of God, yet cannot ATONE FOR SIN AS AN ANIMAL CAN.
But still Yeshua was sent as the last sacrifice
Luke 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, (TS98) Luke 24:46 and said to them, “THUS IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN, and so it was necessary for the Messiah to suffer and to rise again from THE DEAD the third day, (TS98) Luke 24:47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His Name to all nations, beginning at Yerushalayim. (TS98) Luke 24:48 “And you are witnesses of these [matters]. (TS98)
As it is written in verse 47 forgiveness of sin is proclaimed in his name, by the authority of his name we are cleansed of our sin, and these are Yeshua\s words. And not this according to Yeshua is in the O.T , as he says "Thus it has been written". |
||||||||||||||
jp the unitarian
Newbie Joined: 25 May 2018 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 13 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||
Well, let me repeat what I said - " Again, as I always said, Hebrew 9:11-12 are NOT the words of God Almighty or His prophet, Jesus Christ. So, who do you really listen to and follow ??
You have a tendency of rejecting what blocks you without accepting truth, that will unfortunately be your downfall. First of all, all the words in the Bible are the words of Yehovah, everything that has been included in the Bible are what Yehovah has allowed, simple as that. Hebrews 9 here is perfectly inline with the gospel, which is the word of Yehovah.
Heb 9:11 But Messiah, having become a High Priest of the coming good [matters], through the greater and more perfect Tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, (TS98) Heb 9:12 entered into the Most Set-apart Place once for all, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood, having obtained everlasting redemption. (TS98) Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the defiled, sets apart for the cleansing of the flesh, (TS98) Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of the Messiah, who through the everlasting Spirit offered Himself unblemished to Elohim, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living Elohim? (TS98)
Lev 1:3 “If his gift is a burnt offering from the herd, he is to bring an unblemished male. He must bring it to the entrance to the tent of meeting so that he may be accepted by the LORD. (HCSB) Lev 1:4 He is to lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering so it can be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him. (HCSB) Lev 1:5 He is to slaughter the bull before the LORD; Aaron’s sons the priests are to present the blood and sprinkle it on all sides of the altar that is at the entrance to the tent of meeting. (HCSB)
Lev 4:26 He must burn all its fat on the altar, like the fat of the fellowship sacrifice. In this WAY THE PRIEST WILL MAKE ATONEMENT ON HIS BEHALF FOR THAT PERSON’S SIN, AND he will be forgiven. (HCSB)
You really need to read the Bible because you know nothing about the law of Moses
Lev 5:6 He must bring his restitution for the sin he has committed to the LORD: a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering. In this way the priest will make ATONEMENT on his behalf for his sin. (HCSB)
To be forgiven of sin a blood sacrifice is to be given, it should be your own blood, but animals can be used to pay for your sin. So animals can be an atonement offering for your sin, but you say man cannot making man of less importance than an animal. Maybe you just have to figure out why animals can and men cannot, but one way or another you have a grave problem on your hands, I don't.
You seem to have a lot of problems with Yeshua being a sacrifice
Matt 16:21 From that time יהושע began to show to His taught ones that it was necessary for Him to go to Yerushalayim, and to suffer much from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and to be raised again the third day. (TS98) Matt 17:22 And while they were staying in Galil, יהושע said to them, “The Son of Aḏam is about to be delivered up into the hands of men, (TS98)
Luke 18:31 And taking the twelve aside, He said to them, “See, we are going up to Yerushalayim, and all that have been written by the prophets about the Son of Aḏam shall be accomplished. (TS98) Luke 18:32 “For He shall be delivered up to the gentiles and shall be mocked and insulted and spat upon, (TS98) Luke 18:33 and having flogged Him they shall kill Him. And on the third day He shall rise again.” (TS98)
Luke 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, (TS98) Luke 24:46 and said to them, “Thus it has been written, and so it was necessary for the Messiah to suffer and to rise again from the dead the third day, (TS98) Luke 24:47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His Name to all nations, beginning at Yerushalayim. (TS98)
Repentance and forgiveness of sin should be proclaimed in his name, sounds like forgiveness of sin, ya I listen To Yeshua, how about you.
the rising of Yeshua is according to him shown in this O.T story
Matt 12:39 But He answering, said to them, “A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Yonah. (TS98) Matt 12:40 “For as Yonah was three days and three nights in the stomach of the great fish, SO SHALL THE SON OF AḎAM BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH. (TS98)
That is three days and three nights he was in the heart of the earth, that means buried and on the third day resurrected. |
||||||||||||||
Post Reply | Page <1 1011121314> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |