sex 4sale

fredifreeloader wrote: no indeed you are not , servetus, but i was not talking about your solution to the problem.  i was referring to the notion floating about in this site that, for some reason, sex was off the menu in the garden of eden. mishmish has referred to it, and so did someone else on another thread, i forget who.  this may relate to the nonsense, believed by many in the west, that sex was the original sin, as can be seen by the symbol of the bitten apple, representing sex

Funny how from my sentence this is what you dedeuced. I also asked if the life and death of Jesus or the Day of Judgement were not meant to be. Yet you jumped right on the procreation thing.

Let me make it clear: there is nothing in Islam that states mankind was not meant to procreate. And contrary to Christian doctrine, we do not believe that the manner a woman gives birth, the pain and blood, are part of the punishment of the "fall", but rather the way God intended it to be. We believe that women recieve blessings for suffering during childbirth, since that is one of woman's main purposes for existing at all. And that by fulfilling this purpose in this manner, she is blessed by God.

See, Muslims believe that man was meant to be on earth, that men were never perfect, that everything is in God's control, it is His will, and that we are doing what we are suppose to do. That our jihad, or struggle, in this life is against our own ability to commit sin and our own ability to choose to deviate from the path of righteousness. That WE are the only ones who can choose this for ourselves, and we alone will be judged by the choices we make. We do not believe that we are responsible for the sins of any other, nor can any other be responsible for our sins. Therefore we reject the idea of Original Sin, or the idea of redemption bought at the price of another's life. We commit the sins, we pay for them. We do good deeds, we get the reward for them. It is just that simple.

"Let me make it clear: there is nothing in Islam that states mankind was not meant to procreate."

this was not what i meant to say.  what i meant was that i have heard the idea floated a few times by muslims that the bible teaches no sex in eden, and that it was not Gods original intention.  i was merely seeking to correct this impression (which may be an impression i have, not one which is being given)

will return tomorrow God willing

{If things are not as God meant them to be, and His creations are other than as God created them, then you are saying that God is not in control?

"no"}

Fred, if God is in control, then things are as they are meant to be. There can logically be no other meaning to this sentence.

God created us imperfect with free will and the ability to commit sin. If He had not created us this way, Adam and Eve could never have sinned. It would have been an impossibility. Adam and Eve could NEVER have done something that God did not give them the ability to do. He created them, they could only do what He allowed them and gave them the ability to do. They sinned, therefore God gave them the ability to sin. He created them that way.  If you disagree with this statement, then prove to me how any thing that God has created can do something other than what God has given it the ability to do.

This does not mean that God created people specifically to sin, God created people to be viscegerents of the earth, but He created us with free will and the ability to choose to sin or not. We must make that choice. We are responsible for the choice we make.

God knows who will go to the hellfire and who will go to Paradise, but we decide that ourselves with our actions and our deeds. God knows everything that we will do and every choice that we will make, He is God and knows everything. However, we still have to make those choices. God does not make people choose evil. God just gave us the ability to choose for ourselves. God did not tell any man to spit in the Prophet's face, but God knew that man would make that choice. God MEANT for us to have the choice. If mankind was never to know sin, or fall from grace, or be imperfect, we never would have been given the choice of free will.

"makes you wonder, though, how all those muslims feel they can do just as they please, especially as they think they can earn their own salvation."

Which Muslims are you referring to? There are always people who claim to be adherents to a religion yet do not follow the teachings. Let's see, hhhhmmmmmm. Wait, we need look know further than those two great bastions of religious piety and leaders of our countries, G.W. Bush and Tony Blair. Both avowed Christians who take religion very seriously. G.W. has been known to have personal conversations with God, and Mr. Blair holds a position  position as high church Anglo-Catholic and publicly states that he holds himself accountable to God for all of his decisions... But I guess they forgot the Ten Commandments somehow, or the admonition to :"turn the other cheek".

So it is grace through faith that saves you, not your deeds, even though God has said that all will be judged according to their deeds and what is written in the book.

So, Paul essentially created a kinder, gentler, much easier religion. Who wouldn't want to be a Christian, all you have to do is say Jesus is God. LITERALLY all you have to do is say Jesus is God.

Yes, it's true. Muslims believe that no man knows his fate, only God knows. No man has a monopoly on God's Grace, nor access to God's Wisdom or Omniscience. No man can know the future or what their fate will be on the Day of Judgement. That is why we must strive to do as many good deeds and help as many people as we can, while we can. Because once you start thinking you are going to heaven without having to work for, you get lazy.

You know Fred, I have a very simple question and would like a simple, logical answer, if possible.

If things are not as God meant them to be, then why, when Adam and Eve disobeyed Him, did He not just stop everything right there?

Adam and Eve were the only two humans, and they were the only two who had sinned. Why not just destroy them and start over?

If man's purpose of creation was to dwell in the Garden of Eden, why not destroy the two sinners, and start over with humans who would fulfill their purpose?