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no compulsion - the latest......

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AbRah2006 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AbRah2006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 3:16am
[QUOTE=fredifreeloader]

Surah At-Tauba
29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.

now why should people be attacked just because they dont believe in islam?  why should they have to pay a special tax?  why should they have to feel subdued, just because they dont believe islam? - yet this is what the world faces if muslims get their way

My response:

Islam, a religion of mercy, does not permit terrorism. In the Quran, God has said:
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)

The Prophet Muhammad used to prohibit soldiers from killing women and children, and he would advise them: {...Do not betray, do not be excessive, do not kill a newborn child.} And he also said: {Whoever has killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise, though its fragrance is found for a span of forty years.}

Also, the Prophet Muhammad has forbidden punishment with fire.

He once listed murder as the second of the major sins, and he even warned that on the Day of Judgment, {The first cases to be adjudicated between people on the Day of Judgment will be those of bloodshed.}


The non-Muslims such as the pagans,Jews, Romans(Christians) and Persians had been attacking Islamic nation since the prophet Muhammad and his companions established an Islamic nation in Medina so Al Quran allowed Muslims to defend themselves against the enemies who were trying to destroy the Islamic nation and to eliminate Islam and Muslims. When the Muslims defeated them, they were given two choices either embraced Islam or paid the Jizya. The Jizya was a tax for the benefit of the non-Muslims themselves such as defence and development.

What is Jizya?  

(1) Yusuf al-Qaradawi says the word jizya is derived from the jazaa', meaning "reward", "return", or "compensation", and defines it as "a payment by the non-Muslim according to an agreement signed with the Muslim state".

(2) Yusuf Ali states "The derived meaning, which became the technical meaning, was a poll-tax levied from those who did not accept Islam, but were willing to live under the protection of Islam, and were thus tacitly willing to submit to the laws enforced by the Muslim State."

In states ruled by Islamic law, jizya or jizyah (Arabic: �����) is a per capita tax imposed on non-Muslim adult males.

Jizya was applied to every free adult male member of the People of the Book, and/or non-Muslim living in lands under Muslim rule. There was no amount permanently fixed for it, though the payment usually depended on wealth: the Kitab al-Kharaj of Abu Yusuf sets the amounts at 48 dirhams for the richest (e.g. moneychangers), 24 for those of moderate wealth, and 12 for craftsmen and manual laborers. Females, children, the poor, and hermits were exempt from it. The disabled and elderly were exempt unless they were independently wealthy, as were mendicant monks�those living in productive monasteries had to pay. Historically Muslim rulers also attempted to collect jizya from Hindus, Sikhs and Zoroastrians under their rule. The collection of the tax was often the duty of the elders of those communities.

In return, those who paid the jizya were not required to serve in the military and were considered under the protection of the Muslim state, with certain rights and responsibilities. Non-Muslims were also exempt from zakat, or mandatory charity imposed on Muslims. If he refused to pay the jizya, he might be imprisoned, as Abu Yusuf recommended.

In his message to the people of Al-Hirah, Khalid bin Walid is recorded as saying (in reference to the jizya), "When a person is too old to work or suffers a handicap, or when he falls into poverty, he is free from the dues of the poll tax; his sustenance is provided by the Muslim Exchequer."

According to Muslim accounts of Umar, in his time some payers of the jizya were compensated if they had not been cared for properly. The accounts vary, but describe his meeting an old Jew begging, and assisting him; according to one version:

Umar said to him, "Old man! We have not done justice to you. In your youth we realized Jizyah from you and have left you to fend for yourself in your old age". Holding him by the hand, he led him to his own house, and preparing food with his own hands fed him and issued orders to the treasurer of the Bait-al-mal that that old man and all others like him, should be regularly doled out a daily allowance which should suffice for them and their dependents.

In modern times, the jizya and zakat taxes have been replaced by more modern forms of taxation.

The custom of taxing a population at a certain amount per head dates back to very ancient times. The first time such a tax is mentioned is in Ex. xxx. 12-16, where it is stated that every male "from twenty years old and above" shall give, as "a ransom for his soul," half a shekel for an offering unto the Lord. There were three other annual contributions obligatory on males, the amounts being proportioned according to their means (comp. Deut. xvi. 16-17). Although the contribution of half a shekel was required only at the time of the numbering of the children of Israel, the rabbinical law makes it an annual tax. There are, however, in the Bible traces of a regular poll-tax. Ezekiel, remonstrating against exactions, pointed out that the shekel was twenty gerahs (Ezek. xlv. 9-12). This shows that in Ezekiel's time the princes imposed a greater exchange value on the shekel than the prescribed twenty gerahs (comp. Ex. l.c.).

The Jizya was very much lower than the Roman poll tax!

Under the Romans: In 70 C.E. Titus, being informed that the Jews had paid half a shekel per capita to the Temple, declared that it should thereafter be paid into the imperial treasury. This practise continued up to the reign of Hadrian, when the Jews obtained permission to apply the halfshekel to the maintenance of their patriarch (comp. Basnage, "Histoire des Juifs," iv., ch. iv.). Nevertheless, it appears from Appian ("Syrian War," � 50) that Hadrian imposed on all the Jews of his empire a heavy poll-tax. It is further stated that the contribution of a half-shekel continued to be paid to the Roman emperor, that it was remitted only under Julian the Apostate, and that Theodosius reimposed it. This poll-tax existed during the Middle Ages under the name of "der goldene Opferpfennig." In the Orient the Jews paid the half-shekel for the maintenance of the exilarch, and Pethahiah of Regensburg relates that he found at Mosul six thousand Jews, each of whom paid annually a gold piece, one-half of which was used for the maintenance of the two rabbis, while the other half was paid to the emir (Depping, "Juden im Mittelalter," p. 138).

The age at which the Jews became liable to the poll-tax varied in different countries. In Germany every Jew and Jewess over twelve years old paid one gulden. In Spain and England, in 1273, the age was ten years. The amount varied in different epochs. In Anjou the Jews paid ten "sols tournois" as a poll-tax; on certain occasions the poor Jews claimed to be unable to pay this poll-tax; in these cases its collection was left to the community, which was responsible to the government for 1,000individuals, even when the number of Jews in the city was smaller. In England the tallage for crown revenue occasionally took the form of a poll-tax. In Italy, according to Judah Minz (Responsa, No. 42), a poll-tax was imposed on the community by its chiefs to the amount of half the communal expenses, the other half being raised by assessment. In Turkey, in the fifteenth century, the Jews were subject to a light poll-tax, payable only by males over twelve years of age. To defray congregational expenses, the Jewish communities until recently assessed equally every head of a household ("rosh bayit") in addition to collecting a tax on property (Erach). A similar tax was demanded from every family by the Austrian government (see Familianten Gesetz). [Source: JewishEncyclopedia.com]

 Have you ever paid taxes in your own nations? Why don't you complain for paying those taxes? Why don't you refuse to pay them? Why don't you stop paying the taxes imposed onto you?



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Colin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 3:36am

Originally posted by AbRah2006 AbRah2006 wrote:

Have you ever paid taxes in your own nations? Why don't you complain for paying those taxes? Why don't you refuse to pay them?

As far as I know, the British tax authorities don't make us choose between paying taxes or being compelled to sign up to a religion.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 3:56am
abrah - so you have no comment to make about my quotation from islamic law - that doesnt surprise me
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AbRah2006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 4:09am

Originally posted by fredifreeloader fredifreeloader wrote:

abrah - so you have no comment to make about my quotation from islamic law - that doesnt surprise me

____________________________________________________

My response: I am surprised to see that you cannot read....I have refuted your wild claims! Why don't you read my statements?



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 4:14am

i have not made wild claims, i have quoted directly from shariah law, which is, admittedly, wild enough.  heres more

AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
... capitation-tax is a sort of punishment inflicted upon infidels for their obstinacy in infidelity, (as was before stated;) whence it is that it cannot be accepted of the infidel if he send it by the hands of a messenger, but must be exacted in a mortifying and humiliating manner, by the collector sitting and receiving it from him in a standing posture : (according to one tradition, the collector is to seize him by the throat, and shake him, saying, "Pay your tax, Zimmee!) - It is therefore evident that capitation-tax is a punishment; and where two punishments come together, they are compounded, in the same manner as in Hidd, or stated punishment. Secondly, capitation-tax is a substitute for destruction in respect to the infidels, and a substitute for personal aid in respect to the Muslims, (as was before observed;)

for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AbRah2006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 4:18am
Originally posted by Colin Colin wrote:

[QUOTE=AbRah2006] Have you ever paid taxes in your own nations? Why don't you complain for paying those taxes? Why don't you refuse to pay them?

As far as I know, the British tax authorities don't make us choose between paying taxes or being compelled to sign up to a religion.

______________________________________________________

My response: The non-Muslim males who were under Muslim protection were required to pay Jizya to the Muslim government!

As far as I know , the British government had been imposing poll tax (British form of Jizya) onto its citizens and non-citizens since 1380 AD. John of Gaunt, the regent of Richard II of England, levied his poll tax in 1380 to finance the war against France that was in progress. Each person aged over 15 was required to pay the amount of one shilling, which was a large amount then.

As the charges began to rise, up to 18 million people refused to pay the tax, enforcement measures became increasingly draconian, and unrest mounted and culminated in a number of riots. The most serious of these happened in London on March 31, 1990, during a protest at Trafalgar Square, London, which more than 200,000 protesters attended (see also Poll tax riot). The Labour MP, Terry Fields, was jailed for 60 days for refusing to pay his poll tax.

 

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AbRah2006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 4:30am
[QUOTE=fredifreeloader]

i have not made wild claims, i have quoted directly from shariah law, which is, admittedly, wild enough.  heres more

AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
... capitation-tax is a sort of punishment inflicted upon infidels for their obstinacy in infidelity, (as was before stated;) whence it is that it cannot be accepted of the infidel if he send it by the hands of a messenger, but must be exacted in a mortifying and humiliating manner, by the collector sitting and receiving it from him in a standing posture : (according to one tradition, the collector is to seize him by the throat, and shake him, saying, "Pay your tax, Zimmee!) - It is therefore evident that capitation-tax is a punishment; and where two punishments come together, they are compounded, in the same manner as in Hidd, or stated punishment. Secondly, capitation-tax is a substitute for destruction in respect to the infidels, and a substitute for personal aid in respect to the Muslims, (as was before observed;)

My response: What about the Western governemnts?A poll tax, soul tax, or capitation is a tax of a uniform, fixed amount per individual (as opposed to a percentage of income). Such taxes were important sources of revenue for many countries the US,Canada and UK . There are several famous cases of poll taxes in history, notably a tax formerly required for voting in parts of the United States that was often designed to disenfranchise African Americans, Native Americans, and whites of non-British descent, as well as two taxes levied by John of Gaunt and Margaret Thatcher in the fourteenth and twentieth centuries respectively.

The word poll is an English word that once meant "head", hence the name poll tax for a per-person tax. However, in the United States, the term has come to be used almost exclusively for a fixed tax applied to voting. Since "going to the polls" is a common idiom for voting (deriving, of course, from the fact that early voting involved head-counts), a new folk etymology has supplanted any knowledge of the phrase's true origins in America.

The jizya is a poll tax that, according to Islamic law, Islamic states must take from adult non-Muslim males.

Do you mean that the Western nations were punishing their citizens and non-citizens by imposing  poll tax, soul tax, or capitation onto them?

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 4:33am

and yet more:

  1. 3989
    AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
    [Infidels may be attacked without provocation].
    The destruction of the sword is incurred by infidels, although they be not the first aggressors, as appears from various passages in the sacred writings which are generally received to this effect.

  2. AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
    ...capitation-tax is due only in lieu of destruction... That is to say, is imposed as a return for the mercy and forbearance shown by the Muslims, and as a substitute for that destruction which is due upon infidels.
    3997
    AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
    [On infidels refusing either to embrace the faith, or to pay tribute, they may be attacked.]

abrah, your previous statement "with regard to the dhimmis (non-muslims living under muslim protection), islam ordered that they must be treated justly" is a joke.  according to this, dhimmis are paying a humiliating tax (the amount of it is irrelevant, i am talking about the nature of the tax) to the muslims, in order to be protected from the muslims.  this is not protection, its a protection racket, pay up or die! - note that we are talking about shariah law here, this is what well get if its enforced in the world, which is the dream of every muslim.

note that under this system of bondage, non-muslims are not treated as equal citizens, otherwise they would be called upon to pay the same taxes as the muslims, and get the same treatment.  this is why your comparison to western tax systems is laughable.

now you say that islam ordered that dhimmis must be treated justly.  yes treated justly according to islam.  the only problem with that is that islamic "justice" is a very different kettle of fish to what we perceive as being just

 



Edited by fredifreeloader
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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