Burden of Proof

Akhe Abdullah wrote: Apollos wrote: [QUOTE=Akhe Abdullah]As Salamu Alaikum, Apollos. If you can not understand me how can you understand the Bible.I do not use big words and Im not talking in circles.Maybe we can communicate better if you could only greet me properly for ounce. <SPAN ="cgable cgable-over" title="View all messages with this subject" style="CURSOR: pointer" widget="" cmd="erView:subjectSearch">Charis kai Eirene Xapis Kai Eipnun,Would this be the correct response?Do you speak and or read Greek? So I take it that since you are non-Muslim you cant greet me the same,dont worry it's not a form of conversion.

Akhe Abdullah,

Since you greeted me with an English transliteration of the Arabic for �Peace be upon you�, I thought I should also use the English transliteration for my greeting. As you apparently know it comes from the Greek words meaning �Grace and Peace� and is a common greeting by Paul in his letters. While the last word is akin to the Jewish greeting of �Peace� or �Shalom�, the first word �Grace� was the common Greek greeting. Paul � and I here � tie the two together in this order to emphasize that Peace from God comes after Grace from God. I therefore wish upon you the Grace and Peace that comes from God. (I am not averse to "As Salamu Alaikum" but I wish more than just peace on you).

Apollos

Originally posted by Apollos

I will list the major reasons we know that Jesus was dead. ...

Points 1 to 6 are easily disposed of because they are just hearsay.  I agree that it was widely and maybe universally believed that Christ died on the cross.  Lots of things are widely believed but eventually turn out not be true.  (Remember the "weapons of mass destruction"? But the people whom you quote are merely reporting what others have said.  None of them is writing from his own knowledge.  Aside from the disciples (who are hardly impartial), none of them actually witnessed the event.

Ron - You are just assuming they were writing only hearsay. It is possible that some of these writers had been there at the cross when Jesus was crucified. In any event they establish that Jews and Romans - people with a strong motive to disprove the resurrection claim - all agreed that Jesus had died on the cross. Either everyone knew the details and how ludicrous it would have been to suggest he had never died or they were simply not as smart as you. In fact today�s historians are not as smart as you because they don�t buy your claim either.

Point 7 needs to be broken down into pieces:

The details and history of crucifixion show that people didn�t survive this form of execution. The Romans were good at it and they didn�t make such mistakes.

How do you know that?  Like doctors, they would have buried their mistakes.  Besides, this was anything but a routine crucifixion.  I'm sure the centurions, surrounded by wailing mourners accusing them of murdering their Messiah, wanted it over with as soon as possible.

There is no evidence that the Romans ever made such a mistake and your argument from silence is just that. The analogies of doctors burying their mistakes argues for my point not yours. If you think an analogy is helpful please use one that is relevant to a deliberate public execution in 33 A.D. And you are misrepresenting the facts to say the guards were �surrounded by wailing mourners accusing them of murdering their Messiah�. Where did you get this idea? The opposite was true as Jesus was being mocked and taunted by the masses and the few of his followers who were there were keeping quiet. The only one�s anxious for the event to be over were the Jews who wanted to leave for their holy day activities but wouldn�t leave the crucifixion site before Jesus was dead.

But let�s imagine they did this one time. This meant Jesus was nailed to a cross as various eyewitnesses attest, he suffered incredible blood loss, paralysis of the upper body and overall shock before his legs were broken or a sword was put through his side.

He probably didn't suffer "incredible blood loss" -- as you may be aware, crucifixion kills by asphyxiation, not blood loss.  He would not have been paralyzed, and they didn't break his legs.  A centurion did jab him in the side with a spear; but again, how hard would you have jabbed the reputed Son of God with his worshippers looking on?

The blood loss I am referring to came from the scourging he experienced before the crucifixion. History tells us that many people never survived this alone and the NT eyewitnesses said he was so weak from the experience that someone else had to carry his cross to the execution site. You are right that asphyxiation was the cause of death by crucifixion which makes it impossible to �look dead� on the cross. The upper body muscles became paralyzed in about 12 minutes and the only way after this to breath was by pushing one�s body up with the legs to force a gulp of air. (Hence the breaking of the legs technique to hasten the death). Unless someone was moving up and down on the cross you knew they were not getting air and as you know, in just a few minutes a lack of oxygen will bring about death.

The stab to the side and the blood and water flowing out confirmed he was dead. (The blood and water flowing from the area they speared is evidence� then and now � of physical death). Even if the stab to the heart didn�t confirm that Jesus was dead, he would certainly have been dead by the time he finally taken down from the cross.

 You insert unfounded facts when you say a centurion would have been reluctant to spear Jesus with �worshippers looking on.� His concern was to make sure Jesus was dead as he had to provide assurance to Pilate that he was really dead.

If he had survived all this (something there is no natural explanation for), he had to look dead to a Roman soldier who was experienced at ascertaining such things.

As I said earlier, if I recall correctly, an upright faint looks enough like death that dentists are taught to be on the lookout for it.  (I'll try to remember to ask my dentist about that next time

I see him.  He's Jewish so he'll probably find the question amusing.

Again your analogy is nothing like a deliberate public execution where death is the intended goal.

He then had to stay alive while others made a tomb ready, wrapped him tightly in burial cloths, and placed him in a cold dark tomb. He would have had about hundred pounds of burial spices on top of him, and a large stone sealing off the entrance where guards were probably posted.

I believe the tomb was already prepared.  Wrapping and placing him to rest in a tomb would probably be the best thing for him -- but the Gospels are unclear about whether the process was completed.  Luke 23:56 says that by the time they had prepared the spices and ointments the Sabbath had begun, so they waited.

If he somehow survived all this for several days without medical attention, food or water (something there is no natural explanation for) he had to somehow get out of the bindings, out from under the heavy spices, and out of the  tomb - by himself.

How do you know he had no medical attention, food or water -- or help?  We don't know what happened to him after the women left him.  All we know is that the next time they return, the tomb is empty and the guards are gone.  Where did he go and who was he with?  And not incidentally, where did the guards go?  We just don't know.

The guards were being directed by the Jewish leaders so though we don�t have a minute by minute record of the details, we are told that the guards sealed the tomb and waited outside. No medical attention was offered or allowed.

Once outside he had to appear healthy and robust for the disciples needed to see him as the Lord of Life, not a pale bleeding, bruised and near dead man.

Nothing in the Gospels suggests that he was "robust and healthy".  I'm sure his followers were sufficiently impressed that the prophecy had been fulfilled, whatever his condition.

He took a seven mile walk with two of them, He scolded them for their unbelief and then met up with them 70 miles away. He picked up wood, started a fire, cooked fish and had it ready before they finished fishing. I�d say that is pretty robust.

The swoon theory is so unbelievable that even people who are determined to reject the resurrection as real, opt for other theories rather than this one.

Would that include Pilate, who also found it hard to believe that he was dead so quickly?

Yes Jesus did dies sooner than one might expect because He decided when to give up His spirit. But this added inquiry by Pilate put extra pressure on the soldiers to make sure He was truly dead � not the opposite.

8.   If Jesus continued living rather than rose from the dead, why did he disappear after 40 days? What would have been his motive and how would he have been able to hide?  Why wasn�t he recognized by people elsewhere after this? Even if he decided to stop preaching in public, someone would have noticed his stigmata. And how could he have evaded his followers who were so convinced he had risen from the dead? Surely he would hear of their torture and martyrdom for claiming that he had risen. Why wouldn�t he have had shown up to say: �Hey, look they are telling the truth, here I am�?

Because once they found out they hadn't killed him the first time, they would have arrested him and given him an encore.  If you had a narrow escape like that, wouldn't you disappear too?

To where?

9. All the facts support the simple history that he was crucified and died. There is nothing but a theory to support the idea that he was only temporarily injured.

Well, aside from the fact that he was still alive three days later!  It reminds me of those incredulous villains in movies who leave their victim for dead and then meet up with him later in the film.  "You can't be alive!  I murdered you!"

Another irrelevant analogy.

So Ron, you clearly think your theory explains everything. No contemporaries thought this and no scholars today think this. How is it that you are able to see what others can not? What would be a proof against your claim? In other words, is your theory falsifiable or is it just a theory that satisfies your own conscience?

Apollos