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Mishmish wrote: "all new to me, (and utterly alien to the Christian mind) do you have any quranic references for this? " Actually Fred, the different levels of heaven are mentioned in the Bible: 2 Corinthians Verse 12: I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. Not so utterly alien... and in the Quran: 65:12 Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (all) descends His Command: that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends, all things in (His) Knowledge.

still i cannot find any idea of progressing up through the stages of heaven after you die in any of the references you give

I just have two things to say, Mishmish, regarding a portion of your above post, where you mention that Tony Blair is Catholic.  He is not.  His wife is, but he isn't.  (Not that it really matters.)

Also, Catholics also believe deeds, or works, are very important as far as our salvation is concerned.  It is essential to our salvation that we are good stewards.  We are saved through the Grace of God by faith, when we repent of our sins, but we are also reminded of these words in Matthew 25:34-40 -- 'Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?' 40 And the king will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.'

God Help Us All,

Patty

Main Entry: ¹per�fect
Pronunciation: 'p&r-fikt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English parfit, from Old French, from Latin perfectus, from past participle of perficere to carry out, perfect, from per- thoroughly + facere to make, do -- more at DO
1 a : being entirely without fault or defect : FLAWLESS

As sin is clearly a defect, Adam and Eve could not have been perfect. They sinned.

I am not saying that that Adam and Eve are imperfect because God gave them free will, I am saying they are imperfect because they chose sin.

"If mankind was never to know sin, or fall from grace, or be imperfect, we never would have been given the choice of free will.

this last sentence is illogical.  adam could still have chosen to obey God, and not sin, and still have had free will "

But Fred, you said yourself it is in our nature to sin, so the only way to avoid this part of our nature would have been to create us without the choice. 

You are missing the point here. God knew Adam and Eve would fall, if that were never meant to happen He would never have given them the choice. You are right, Adam and Eve could have chosen not to sin, but because they were not perfect, they sinned. God knew this would happen, but He gave them the choice anyway. Because it was meant to happen.

"well if things are as they are meant to be, how come all you muslim guys and babes are doing your dawa stuff to change things?"

Are you purposefully missing the point here? Or do you just not want to concede? Once again, if any of God's creations are doing something other than what God gave them the ability to do, then prove it.

"so how do you know youre on the right path, if you dont know the destination?"

We do know the destination. We just have to make sure we do enough to please God to ensure He allows us entry. We can never be 100% sure, so it is our life's work to try to do enough good deeds and avoid the bad deeds so that on the Day of Judgement we do not fall short.