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As sin is clearly a defect, Adam and Eve could not have been perfect. They sinned.

well, as sin is the defect which meant they were imperfect, how could they have been imperfect before they sinned?

I am not saying that that Adam and Eve are imperfect because God gave them free will, I am saying they are imperfect because they chose sin.

but they did not choose sin before making the choice

But Fred, you said yourself it is in our nature to sin, so the only way to avoid this part of our nature would have been to create us without the choice. 

you are now clearly implying that it was in adams nature to sin (which is not correct) - but if it was correct, how can you then say we are not born with this nature?

Are you purposefully missing the point here? Or do you just not want to concede? Once again, if any of God's creations are doing something other than what God gave them the ability to do, then prove it.

you have subtly changed things here.  before you were saying were all doing what we were meant to do.  now youre saying were doing what we have the ability to do.  why is that?

let me put something else to you.  you said earlier - "in all my many years as a christian i was taught that men were imperfect because of adams sin".  you have now rejected this teaching, and have joined up with a religion which teaches that men are imperfect because God created them thus.  actually it looks to me as though your original sin is more "original" than ours

i would also like to have your comments on sahih bukhari vo4book55no.621, vol6book60no.260 and no.262.  note first of all that two prophets are arguing in paradise (what kind of place is this).  note also that adam made people miserable because of his sin.  what people? - there was noone else around, it could only have been his descendants, suffering because of the effects of his sin.  note also that adam pointed out to moses that he was not responsible, but that he was fated to sin (what a shirker, i told you he committed shirk, didnt i?)

We do know the destination. We just have to make sure we do enough to please God to ensure He allows us entry. We can never be 100% sure, so it is our life's work to try to do enough good deeds and avoid the bad deeds so that on the Day of Judgement we do not fall short.

well how much is "enough"? it cant be more than muhammad did, surely, and he didnt know.  the bible says you have already fallen short - romans 3: 23

Actually, originally those were your words. I agree. I never said we aren't born with this nature. I said that we are innocent until we sin. Of course it is our nature, otherwise we would not have to struggle to stay on the righteous path. Fighting this is our internal jihad.

sounds like an excellent definition of the phenomenon of original sin to me, for the most part.  except for the internal jihad thing.  correct me if im wrong, but my information is that the "internal jihad" is a hadith thing, not a quran thing.  therefore according to you it is written by men and not by God.  the "internal jihad" is a myth

Men are created imperfect because we cannot be something other than what God, the Almighty, created us to be. Nothing in all of the heavens or the earth can be anything other than what God created it to be, or do anything other than what God it the ability to do. Not even man. "but they did not choose sin before making the choice"No one ever does. But you would believe that men are born guilty anyway.

no, they are born in sin, therefore with a sinful nature, which tends to sin, which you have now accepted we all have.  i said at the very outset we are only guilty of our own sins

Man was meant to dwell on the earth. Man was meant to sin, or it would not have happened. Men are meant to live and die, or we would be immortal. God is in control of everything and everything is under God's control. Nothing can happen without the Will of God, nothing. Therefore, if God Wills it, it is meant to be.

To believe anything other than this is to question the Omnipotence of God.

but if man has free will, as you yourself have been contending, then he has the ability to rebel against the will of God, in which case the will of God is not being carried out in the individual life of the rebel,  which is why they end up in the lake of fire

2:30 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

Man is where he was meant to be.

but from the quotation you give from the quran, it sounds like the angels knew exactly what was afoot, namely that man was a sinner who would cause nothing but trouble on earth - and allah does not deny it.  in other words he put a sinner on earth deliberately

I believe that God is Just and Fair in all things.

so do i

I do not believe for a second that God would judge me for anything other than what I have done, nor hold me accountable for any acts other than my own.

neither do i

Nor do I believe that I will not be held accountable for my own actions. I am the one who acted thus, why would I not be responsible for the consequences?

makes sense

To take away man's accountability is to make him less than what God intended him to be.

well you see if man is held responsible for his sin, and punished for it in hell, which is where all sin is punished in the end, then he will never be what God intended him to be, that is to say , with him eternally, and eternally acceptable to him