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no compulsion - the latest......

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AbRah2006 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AbRah2006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 5:14am

bmzsp.......I like your comments and I agree with you. Thank you very much for your good advice and I aprreciate it. May Allah bless and guide you to His true path ...Ameen!

To Fredi...I never hate you and I hope you will be a good friend of mine! I hope someday you will be a Muslim like those Christian missionaries who have embraced Islam http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/

 



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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BMZ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 6:35am

AbRah,

Salaam Aalikum and thank you for being so kind in understanding.

I admire this quality.

By the way, tax collection was there since the beginning and ancient times. Every civilised nation has done in the past and continues to do so. The worst tax, worse than the Jizya, was imposed on the poor people of the British India. It was the worst tax in the history and it was the tax (British Jizya) on the Salt collected from the sea. The British knew well that the Indians could not cook any curry without it. It was heavily taxed.    Not to mention the Opium Jizya!

People were so much heavily taxed that Gandhi had to walk miles to the seaside and make some salt breaking the Law and was arrested.  

Even Jesus is on record talking about Jizya, saying that "Render to Caeser that is due to Caeser, and to God what is due to God."

Sincerely

BMZ



Edited by bmzsp
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fredifreeloader View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 10:01am
Originally posted by AbRah2006 AbRah2006 wrote:

[QUOTE=fredifreeloader]

Do you mean that the Western nations were punishing their citizens and non-citizens by imposing  poll tax, soul tax, or capitation onto them?


 ---no thats not what i meant.  what i showed by the quotation i gave from sharia law is that, according to sharia law itself, the jizya tax is a humiliating punishment for non-muslims

_________________________________________________________

My response:  Did the Western nations humiliate their citizens and non-citizens by imposing  poll tax, soul tax, or capitation onto them ?

well who am i to speak of the motivations of western (or eastern or whatever) governments when they impose taxation on people?  --i assume they do it because they need the money to carry out their programmes.  at least i know of no government which has announced the introduction of a tax specifically to humiliate and punish people.  but islam, according to sharia law, has.  it is the jizya tax.  now bmz has fallen into the same hole as yourself, abrah (by bringing up the subject of the salt tax under the raj) - the fact is that pointing to the systems of taxations of world governments, past and present, does not answer what sharia law clearly states about the jizya tax

btw i dont mind being called "lusty", after all these years, it is quite a compliment -----and i dont hate you either, abrah.  as for my faith, this is no secret in these forums, i am a fundamentalist christian

for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 11:07am
you will no doubt have noted, colin, that your incisive point has yet to be answered
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 12:04pm
yes bmz, im aware youve made a post about quran 9: 29 and the preceding verses.  i am not equipped to dispute your commentary on the verses without further investigation, but i will point out this: fighting is ordered, therefore islam cannot be a peaceful religion.  also, the purpose of the fighting is subjugation of other people, therefore islam is not a religion that promotes equality.  if people are beaten in war, then why should they then be dominated for the rest of their lives by the choice of islam or the jizya tax and dhimmitude?   the purpose of the fighting seems to be not the safety and security of muslims but the subjugation of non-muslims

Edited by fredifreeloader
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 4:41pm

Fredi,

If that is what you conclude, then I have wasted my time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 9:34pm
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

Fredi,

If that is what you conclude, then I have wasted my time.

Assalamu Alaikum:

"There are none so blind as those who will not see..."

 

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2006 at 9:54pm

Assalamu Alaikum:

If non-Muslims wished not to pay the tax, all they had to do was fight with the Muslim armies. They had a choice.

Sir Thomas Arnold, an orientalist of the early 20th century, has argued:

This tax was not imposed on the, Christians as some would have us think, as a penalty for their refusal to accept the Muslim faith. Rather, it was paid by them in common with the other dhimmis or non-Muslim subjects of the state whose religion precluded them from serving in the army, in return for the protection secured for them by the arms of the Muslims. When the people of Hirah contributed the sum agreed upon, they expressly mentioned that they paid this jizyah on condition that �the Muslims and their leader protect us from those who would oppress us, whether they be Muslims or others.

Sir Thomas Arnold gives an example of a Christian Arab tribe which avoided paying the jizya altogether by fighting alongside Muslim armies "such was the case with the tribe of al-Jurajimah, a Christian tribe in the neighbourhood of Antioch, who made peace with the Muslims, promising to be their allies and fight on their side in battle, on condition that they should not be called upon to pay jizya and should receive their proper share of the booty".

In his message to the people of Al-Hirah, Khalid bin Walid is recorded as saying (in reference to the jizya), "When a person is too old to work or suffers a handicap, or when he falls into poverty, he is free from the dues of the poll tax; his sustenance is provided by the Muslim Exchequer." A letter attributed to Khalid bin Walid said that "This is a letter of Khalid ibn al-Waleed to Saluba ibn Nastuna and his people; I agreed with you on al-jezyah and protection. As long as we protect you we have the right in al-jezyah, otherwise we have none.�

According to Muslim accounts of Umar, in his time some payers of the jizya were compensated if they had not been cared for properly. The accounts vary, but describe his meeting an old Jew begging, and assisting him; according to one version:

Umar said to him, "Old man! We have not done justice to you. In your youth we realized Jizyah from you and have left you to fend for yourself in your old age". Holding him by the hand, he led him to his own house, and preparing food with his own hands fed him and issued orders to the treasurer of the Bait-al-mal that that old man and all others like him, should be regularly doled out a daily allowance which should suffice for them and their dependents.

Excuse the cut and paste.

 

 

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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