The Original Sin

Armstrong's quote says that Muhammad, not Islam, was a great success. It may also be true that Islam was a great success initially; but its insistence on the Quran as the final revelation and its resistance to any kind of innovation renders it incapable of adapting to the modern world.

At the moment I do not remember what Armstrong said. But I do confess that Islam is more important. So, is it's success. Prophet Muhammad PBUH simply brought the final and most updated version of Islam. He completed a process that was begun by Adam PBUH.

Islam is mostly based on the Quran and the Shariah based on the Quran and the Hadith is for all times, until the Day of Judgement. So, it cannot change, it has not until now and never will. No innovation is permitted and none is required.

Name a standard? Well, with 25% of the world's population, one would expect at least one modern Muslim nation that could be described as successful. Which one would you pick? Iran? Iraq? Saudi Arabia? Egypt?

How about Malaysia and Indonesia? Btw, is that your method of evaluating the success of Islam?By that standard, I am afraid, the Bible does not, neither Christians even begin to lay any claims to success. Tell me which is the most successful christian nation and why?

There is no such book; or if there is, H.G. Wells never wrote it.

Maybe. In case you have not noticed I have already explained why this was happening. And should not happen now.

The Saint wrote: At the moment I do not remember what Armstrong said. But I do confess that Islam is more important. So, is it's success.

It's important, so it's a success??

Prophet Muhammad PBUH simply brought the final and most updated version of Islam. He completed a process that was begun by Adam PBUH. Islam is mostly based on the Quran and the Shariah based on the Quran and the Hadith is for all times, until the Day of Judgement. So, it cannot change, it has not until now and never will. No innovation is permitted and none is required.

Yes I know, and that's my point.  That's how Muslims see their religion.  And that's why Islam has been frozen in time for fourteen centuries while the rest of the world has progressed.

Name a standard? Well, with 25% of the world's population, one would expect at least one modern Muslim nation that could be described as successful. Which one would you pick? Iran? Iraq? Saudi Arabia? Egypt? How about Malaysia and Indonesia?

Yeah, I'd agree those are the two best candidates, though that's not saying much.    Mayalsia has been relatively stable since the Second Malayan Emergency ended in 1989.  The Islamist insurgency in Indonesia ended in 1962 -- but then there was that business with East Timor, which finally broke away from Indonesia in 2002 after decades of brutal occupation and violence.  Moreover, they are both fairly new countries by international standards (Indonesia gaining independence in 1945, Malaysia in 1963).   I think it's too soon to describe either of them as "successful" in political terms, though I hope that one day they will be.

By what measure do you think they qualify?

Btw, is that your method of evaluating the success of Islam?By that standard, I am afraid, the Bible does not, neither Christians even begin to lay any claims to success. Tell me which is the most successful christian nation and why?

The most successful countries, by far, are secular.  There are lots of measures of success, but a common one is the UN's Human Development Index.  If you scan down that list, you won't get to a Muslim country until Brunei, which can't do better than 30th despite its fabulous wealth.

There are many other such lists, of course; but I doubt that you will find one that scores any of the Muslim countries well.  The top places always go to the secular Scandanavian and North American countries, along with Australia, Switzerland and other northern European nations.

Maybe. In case you have not noticed I have already explained why this was happening. And should not happen now.

What do you mean, "should not happen how"?  There are still 15,000 sites that list this bogus quote; and no doubt it continues to replicate across the Internet.

It's important, so it's a success?? Confused

The success of Islam is more important. All prophets PBUT all, including Prophet Muhammad PBUH worked for it.

�If anyone thinks that Allah will not help Muhammad in this world and the hearafter, let them stretch out a rope to the ceiling and cut themselves off, then let them see whether their plan will remove that which enrages them.� [Al-Hajj: 15>

�We surely will give aid to our Prophets and those who believed in this world and on the day when the witnesses will stand forth. The Day when the oppressors� excuses will be of no benefit to them, to them is the curse, and to them is the worst of dwellings.� [Ghaafir: 51-52>

�Those who oppose Allah and His Prophets, they will be in disgrace. Allah has written My Prophets and I will be victorious.� [Al-Mujaadalah: 20-21>

Yes I know, and that's my point. That's how Muslims see their religion. And that's why Islam has been frozen in time for fourteen centuries while the rest of the world has progressed.

Frozen? That is strange choice of a word? How is Islamic laws frozen? They are unchanging but valid in every circumstance. They are not supposed to change. All civilizations of all times are supposed to conform to its laws rather than Islam changing to suit times and people who do not even know what is good or bad for them.

Let me ask you what progress means? Does it mean allowing your women to do whatever they wish to do, including exposure of their physical beauty? Or, does progress means scientific development? Islam, if you know your history created the platform for the scientific developments we see today.


Yeah, I'd agree those are the two best candidates, though that's not saying much.    Mayalsia has been relatively stable since the Second Malayan Emergency ended in 1989. The Islamist insurgency in Indonesia ended in 1962 -- but then there was that business with East Timor, which finally broke away from Indonesia in 2002 after decades of brutal occupation and violence. Moreover, they are both fairly new countries by international standards (Indonesia gaining independence in 1945, Malaysia in 1963).   I think it's too soon to describe either of them as "successful" in political terms, though I hope that one day they will be.

By what measure do you think they qualify?


They qualify because they are politically stable. They are democracies. They have good economies. Their societies have women in active participation.

The most successful countries, by far, are secular. There are lots of measures of success, but a common one is the UN's Human Development Index. If you scan down that list, you won't get to a Muslim country until Brunei, which can't do better than 30th despite its fabulous wealth.

Human development? Development within the borders and wars and aggression outside the borders. Allowing racism to flourish and decimation and ghettoisation of the natives, as in the US and Australia.

There are many other such lists, of course; but I doubt that you will find one that scores any of the Muslim countries well. The top places always go to the secular Scandanavian and North American countries, along with Australia, Switzerland and other northern European nations.

Hmmmmm..........they are all secular. Countries where Jesus PBUH has been long forgotten and the Bible consigned to dusty shelves? Where most divine laws are being trampled upon and institutions like marriage are being ignored or twisted?

What do you mean, "should not happen how"? There are still 15,000 sites that list this bogus quote; and no doubt it continues to replicate across the Internet.

Are you suggesting to me that bogus content is found on Muslim sites only? Have you read most christian sites going blue in the face claiming Hitler was not a christian?

I am asking you what is it, if not bogus content, malicious and reprehensible propaganda about Islam and Muhammad PBUH on millions of christian evangelical sites?

And what do you suppose we should do to eliminate unintentional fake content from Muslim sites. Also let me ask you what, if anything are you willing to do to address the shameless propaganda against Islam and Muhammad PBUH?

The Saint wrote: Greetings The Saint, Greetings CH Do you not understand? You believe that Yshwe 'was not killed', because of this surah... but I do not see that is what this surah is saying. You believe it says, 'they killed him not', as in 'he was not killed', when in actuality it is saying, 'the Jews killed him not', because some would say it was the Roman's that killed him, and so there is much disputing... i.e., ... disputing over who did kill Him... not that He wasn't killed. The Quran answer's you. Anticipating your disbelief. 157. That they said [in boast>, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no [certain> knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- 158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- 159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

Greetings The Saint,

We are right back to my original post of May 6th... we have come full circle.
I guess you really do not understand, but cling to your own understanding.

The surah you quote, doesn't conflict with Christian belief.
Yes, Yshwe was raised from death and taken to be with his Father.  Yshwe lives... and so can we all.... the Good news.

The Saint wrote: If muslims knew the prophephies written in the Bible, they would recognize what islam is..... (I had written, and expounded on this just last week. I really wish muslims knew what was written in the Bible. It would open their eyes.) Why do you not start telling me in small manageable bits what the Bible says?

I suggest to read the books of Ezekiel and Daniel.

asalaam and blessings,
CAringheart