The Original Sin

The Saint wrote: Frozen? That is strange choice of a word? How is Islamic laws frozen? They are unchanging but valid in every circumstance. They are not supposed to change. All civilizations of all times are supposed to conform to its laws rather than Islam changing to suit times and people who do not even know what is good or bad for them.

But civilization has advanced in so many ways since Muhammad's time, and human laws have to change to keep up.  Most other cultures understand this, and adapt their rules accordingly.  And that is why most other cultures are more successful.

Let me ask you what progress means? Does it mean allowing your women to do whatever they wish to do, including exposure of their physical beauty?

"Allowing your women"?  Of course they are allowed to do whatever they wish.  What a sexist remark!  What right do I have to tell a woman what she may or may not do?  If she offends Allah, then that is between herself and Allah.  I'm sure Allah can look after His own interests.  He doesn't need me as His partner.

Besides, the Quran does not specify a Muslim "dress code".  It only requires women to dress modestly, which is always good advice; but modesty is a relative concept, depending on the culture and the situation.  Modesty in seventh century Arabia meant something entirely different from modesty on a beach in California.  Times have changed.

Or, does progress means scientific development? Islam, if you know your history created the platform for the scientific developments we see today.

Yes, I already pointed that out.  But again, science has vastly surpassed the beliefs of the seventh century; and yet we still have Islamic scholars seriously suggesting we should look to the Quran for scientific guidance.  It's ludicrous.  And it's why Muslim countries are making scant progress in the sciences.

They qualify because they are politically stable. They are democracies. They have good economies. Their societies have women in active participation.

But these are supposed to be your best examples of successful societies; and yet Malaysia only ranks #62 out of 187 countries on the HDI, and Indonesia at 108 can't even get above the median!  Most secular societies are much more advanced by just about any measure.  If the best Islam can do is barely adequate, and the worst is places like Somalia and Pakistan, then it should be evident by now that Islam is no longer a blueprint for an ideal society, if it ever was.

Human development? Development within the borders and wars and aggression outside the borders. Allowing racism to flourish and decimation and ghettoisation of the natives, as in the US and Australia.

That was just one index.  If you don't like it, find another one.  There are lots of others, but as I said I don't think you'll find any objective scale that makes Islam look good.

Hmmmmm..........they are all secular. Countries where Jesus PBUH has been long forgotten and the Bible consigned to dusty shelves? Where most divine laws are being trampled upon and institutions like marriage are being ignored or twisted?

You call it twisted; I call it adapted.  Yes, people need to adapt to new circumstances.

For instance, there was a time when it was a good thing, for both the individual and for the tribe, to have lots of children.  Marriage laws therefore encouraged procreation.  But that time is no more.  The planet already has far too many people, and individuals no longer need children to support them.  So in advanced societies, marriage is now more about emotional support than making babies.  It needs a totally different set of rules.

Are you suggesting to me that bogus content is found on Muslim sites only? Have you read most christian sites going blue in the face claiming Hitler was not a christian? I am asking you what is it, if not bogus content, malicious and reprehensible propaganda about Islam and Muhammad PBUH on millions of christian evangelical sites?

Absolutely.  As I've already said several times, this isn't just about Islam.  All religion puts faith ahead of facts.

And what do you suppose we should do to eliminate unintentional fake content from Muslim sites.

The first thing you should do is to stop posting it yourself.  Don't believe stuff just because you read it on the Internet, and don't mindlessly repeat stuff on forums like Islamicity without confirming it yourself.

Beyond that, there isn't much you can do about what others post or publish, but you can learn to evaluate the credibility of a source and disregard the ones that don't care about the truth.  That's what I do.

Also let me ask you what, if anything are you willing to do to address the shameless propaganda against Islam and Muhammad PBUH?

The same thing I'm doing right here.  When I see something on the Internet that is blatantly untrue, whenever possible I respond to it pointing out the error.

You could do the same, and it's something I have been urging Muslims to do for years.  Find a public forum or media Web site posting "shameless propaganda" against Islam, and post a reasoned and respectful response defending the truth.  It could be your own personal "Internet jihad".  I've suggested that here several times, but the apathy among Muslims for such a project is perplexing and frustrating.  The general response can be summed up as "it's too much trouble".

The surah you quote, doesn't conflict with Christian belief.
Yes, Yshwe was raised from death and taken to be with his Father. Yshwe lives... and so can we all.... the Good news.

Yes, it does. Because Jesus PBUH did not die. In his second coming he will die. Because all men and women born must die.

This is the basic difference. Quran says he did not die on earth and was taken-up alive. The Bible says that he died and was resurrected here on earth.

This Quranic verse clearly states that he is not dead yet: 159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before
his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

Before accusing the others of being malicious could you please check your own claims? Hitler was not a Christian. He did of course grow up in a Christian environment but what makes you say he was christian ?
BTW: You also ignored my link on this subject showing that he was not a Christian.

Here's a quote with the source:

Here Hitler uses the Bible and his Christianity in order to attack the Jews and uphold his anti-Semitism:

    "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God�s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice� And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." �Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

I shall address the rest, tomorrow, if I can.

The Saint wrote: The surah you quote, doesn't conflict with Christian belief. Yes, Yshwe was raised from death and taken to be with his Father. Yshwe lives... and so can we all.... the Good news. Yes, it does. Because Jesus PBUH did not die. In his second coming he will die. Because all men and women born must die. This is the basic difference. Quran says he did not die on earth and was taken-up alive. The Bible says that he died and was resurrected here on earth.

Greetings The Saint,

Explain to me exactly how does the qur'an say that Yshwe did not die?
because of the words, 'they killed him not'?

The way I see it, the qur'an speaks of the 'who'... it addresses the question of 'who' believed they killed Yshwe.   By Roman, and non-religious accounts, there is no question that Yshwe died on a cross.  There were many witnesses to the fact including the taking of the body for burial by Joseph of Arimathea, and the witness of the Roman guards of the burial, and also the disappearance of the body from the tomb.

and yes... Yshwe came back to life, and was taken up alive, to heaven, before 500 witnesses, according to the accounts.
I think people did not understand what Muhammad was saying... could not understand the fullness of it... and as I've said earlier... perhaps didn't care, only accepted islam because it was necessary for survival, or perhaps merely because they saw Muhammad as a good ruler.

The Saint wrote: This Quranic verse clearly states that he is not dead yet: 159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

Do you base your judgement on the words, 'before his death'?
Before whose death?
I take this to mean that all must believe in Yshwe before 'his own' death... which is also a Christian truth.  One must come to belief in Yshwe before death in order to be saved.  It is the reason that the Catholic church sends a priest to give last rites when a person is on their deathbed.  It is a last chance to come to God.

asalaam and blessings,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 18 May 2015 at 12:12pm