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Rationality in the Trinity
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Angela View Drop Down
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Points: 2555 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2006 at 10:19am
Originally posted by George George wrote:

Joseph Smith's prophecy

      ". . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . " (History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 394.) 

This prophecy did not come true.

This prophecy has yet to come to pass.....and may never come to pass since in 1974 the Govenor of Missouri repealled the Extermination Order and sincerely apologized to the LDS Church.  Lilburn Boggs lost his reelection bid and his bid for Senate.....he was forced to move West because of the fiasco.  

Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old. Since he was wrong about the moon, is it safe to trust him regarding the way to Heaven? (The Young Woman's Journal, Vol. 3, pages 263-264. See reprint in Mormonism -- Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner, page 4.)

I can say, I've never seen this one before......I'll have to look it up.

I must say that I am learning a lot about your faith.  As I mentioned before I knew very little before I met you.  Thanks.
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BMZ View Drop Down
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Points: 1852 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2006 at 7:18pm

George,

We have to read and understand what the scripture says in English as all the discussions are in English. Keeping this in mind, please try to understand me.

From you: "The Scriptures say that Jesus fell on his face.  This could be accomplished by lying down on his stomach.  When one did this it was usually when one was under severe stress."

Now here the scripture is not saying that Jesus fell down with his face flat on the ground or that he threw himself down. He must have

first knelt or bowed with his knees on the ground first, followed by bringing his head down till his forehead touched the ground, not the entire face. That is how it was and is accomplished. It is not necessary to be in extreme distress that one falls on his face before God. 

Jesus took 3 disciples with him.  Peter, James and John.  He "went a little further."  How do you know that no one saw him?  Jesus asked his disciples to watch over him.  Do you really think he went out of their sight?

If my memory serves right, please read Mark 14:37 in which he tells Peter, "are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour?" This settles my point.

"O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me, nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."  Do you know what the "cup" was?

It does not really mean the cup like a cup of tea. It means that it was unbearable for Jesus to carry on any longer with the task given to him as he was constantly persecuted and his life was threatened. He knew the end was near and his life was in danger. He was thus asking God to pass the duties and responsibilities to another who would come and complete the job. How God saved him, is another story, which can be discussed separately.

Also, you will note in above that Jesus confirms that it IS the Will of God that matters most, not his own Will. He was following only the Will of God. Thus, even before his cup of life was shattered, Jesus confirms here that IT IS THE WILL OF GOD OLY THAT MATTERS and also confirms that he HAD NO WILL OF HIS OWN to decide matters. It was ONLY upto God Almighty.

That is how any student of English literature will interpret that. Hope this helped and I also hope you will not refer to Koine Greek.  

 



Edited by bmzsp
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fredifreeloader View Drop Down
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Points: 456 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2006 at 8:20am

bmz wrote - "He was thus asking God to pass the duties and responsibilities to another who would come and complete the job."

well i dont know what bible your reading from bmz, your conclusions are becoming ever more fantastical

also your point about the disciples falling asleep is completely useless.  there is nothing to suggest that they did not see jesus start to pray, and thus note the posture he adopted on that occasion, and then fall asleep.  in any event their writings are inspired by the Holy Spirit, and thus they did not need to see or hear anything at all on this occasion
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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fredifreeloader View Drop Down
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Points: 456 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2006 at 8:36am

bmz wrote -

"...and looking up while at a meal (presumably sitting or reclining): "After Jesus said this, he looked towards heaven and prayed:" (John 17:1)"

This would come under Thanking God Almighty, not offering prayers."

perhaps you could tell us, bmz, how you think this prayer of the Lord Jesus comes into the category of "thanking God almighty" as you suggest

also, the distinctions you draw between different kinds of communication with God is interesting, but in Christianity all types would be called "prayer"

no posture in prayer is specified in the Holy Scriptures as being the correct one.  Christians may kneel, sit, prostrate themselves or stand at prayer.  the only other stipulation i can think of re prayer in the bible is that men are to have heads uncovered at prayer, but women are to be veiled - 1 corinthians 11: 4,5

you have not answered my question about satan snatching peoples eyes out if he catches them looking up at prayer
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Points: 1647 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2006 at 9:57am

Originally posted by Fredifreeloader Fredifreeloader wrote:

in any event their writings are inspired by the Holy Spirit, and thus they did not need to see or hear anything at all on this occasion.

 Well, haven't we discussed this thing about 'inspired writtings" notion of NT? Who were those who were inspired and who were those who wrote these accounts, was a topic we did discuss with bro Melco. Don't you recall the discussion over the gospel of Mark etc.? Weren't you there??
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fredifreeloader View Drop Down
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Points: 456 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2006 at 10:31am
no i paid no attention to the discussion you had with melco - ahmad, i do have a life away from this screen, you know (although some people think otherwise )---are you talking about the thread started by melco that went on for 40 pages?  if so i only really started to get involved in it quite late on

Edited by fredifreeloader
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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BMZ View Drop Down
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Points: 1852 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2006 at 6:01pm

fredi,

Most of my responses are tailor-made, made-to-measure and to fit like a perfect glove for my dear long time friend George.

I am glad to know that you find my comments interesting. fredi, I wish to make a clear distinction between a Prayer (the act of worshipping God)  and praying to God Almighty for something.

For example, sending my daughter off to Australia and asking God Almighty that she has a safe journey. This is just praying for her welfare and a safe journey. It's like seeking help from God Almighty. Likewise, I pray for a friend or someon'e health, etc.

But when I go to the mosque or into my room to offer my prayers, at certain times, I consider that an act of worshipping my God and I call that an act of Prayers to god Almighty.

If I start my dinner or lunch or breakfast, I thank God Almighty for the food that I eat and recite some words. I do not consider that an act of praying to God. Thus, Jesus was perhaps thanking God for the food that he ate or he was doing a ZIKR of God. I am sure you are aware of the word ZIKR.

fredi, I discuss mainly from Qur'aan. There is plenty of Islamic literature collected and gathered by scholars and I do not agree with something if it does not stand correct in the light or shade of Qur'aan.

Prophet, himself used to look up while praying to God. It can be clearly seen in the verse which confirmed his desire to face the Ka'aba instead of Jerusalem. 

Personally, I do not believe in those types of stories in our literature.

The answer to your questions is a firm No. Satan cannot gouge out eyes.   If he had that power, millions of muslims would have been eyeless.    Sometimes I forget to respond. Please remind me and you will have a frank answer. 

Best Regards

BMZ



Edited by bmzsp
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Points: 1647 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2006 at 8:21am

Originally posted by fredifreeloader fredifreeloader wrote:

no i paid no attention to the discussion you had with melco - ahmad, i do have a life away from this screen, you know (although some people think otherwise )---are you talking about the thread started by melco that went on for 40 pages?  if so i only really started to get involved in it quite late on

Ah! my bro. I hope you are not asking another 40 pages on this thread for the same topic. I guess you would like to go over them yourself where in the end, even your call to bring bro Melco back, couldn't help him restore his interest. 
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