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Rationality in the Trinity

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zulqarnain View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zulqarnain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2006 at 3:22am
Answer by Dr. Naik

Position of Jesus (peace be on him) in Islam:

(i)
Islam is the only non-Christian faith, which makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus (pbuh). No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus (pbuh).

(ii)
We believe that he was one of the mightiest Messengers of Allah (swt).

(iii)
We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians do not believe.

(iv)
We believe he was the Messiah translated Christ (pbuh).


(v)
We believe that he gave life to the dead with God�s permission.

(iv)
We believe that he healed those born blind, and the lepers with God�s permission.

II
CONCEPT OF GOD IN CHRISTIANITY:

1.
Jesus Christ (pbuh) never claimed Divinity

One may ask, if both Muslims and Christians love and respect Jesus (pbuh), where exactly is the parting of ways? The major difference between Islam and Christianity is the Christians� insistence on the supposed divinity of Christ (pbuh). A study of the Christian scriptures reveals that Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. In fact there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself says, "I am God" or where he says, "worship me". In fact the Bible contains statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in which he preached quite the contrary. The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh):

(i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]

(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "�I cast out devils by the Spirit of God�."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "�I with the finger of God cast out devils�."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]


2.
The Mission of Jesus Christ (pbuh) � to Fulfill the Law

Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity for himself. He clearly announced the nature of his mission. Jesus (pbuh) was sent by God to confirm the previous Judaic law. This is clearly evident in the following statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in the Gospel of Mathew:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
[The Bible, Mathew 5:17-20]


3.
God Sent Jesus' (pbuh)

The Bible mentions the prophetic nature of Jesus (pbuh) mission in the following verses:

(i)
"� and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father�s which sent me."
[The Bible, John 14:24]


(ii)
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."
[The Bible, John 17:3]


4.
Jesus Refuted even the Remotest Suggestion of his Divinity

Consider the following incident mentioned in the Bible:

"And behold, one came and said unto him, �Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?�

And he said unto him, �Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.� "
[The Bible, Mathew 19:16-17]

Jesus (pbuh) did not say that to have the eternal life of paradise, man should believe in him as Almighty God or worship him as God, or believe that Jesus (pbuh) would die for his sins. On the contrary he said that the path to salvation was through keeping the commandments. It is indeed striking to note the difference between the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and the Christian dogma of salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh).


5.
Jesus (pbuh) of Nazareth � a Man Approved of God

The following statement from the Bible supports the Islamic belief that Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet of God.

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."
[The Bible, Acts 2:22]


6.
The First Commandment is that God is One

The Bible does not support the Christian belief in trinity at all. One of the scribes once asked Jesus (pbuh) as to which was the first commandment of all, to which Jesus (pbuh) merely repeated what Moses (pbuh) had said earlier:

"Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adonai Ikhad."

This is a Hebrew quotation, which means:

"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
[The Bible, Mark 12:29]

It is striking that the basic teachings of the Church such as Trinity and vicarious atonement find no mention in the Bible. In fact, various verses of the Bible point to Jesus� (pbuh) actual mission, which was to fulfill the law revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh). Indeed Jesus (pbuh) rejected any suggestions that attributed divinity to him, and explained his miracles as the power of the One True God.

Jesus (pbuh) thus reiterated the message of monotheism that was given by all earlier prophets of Almighty God.


NOTE: All quotations of the Bible are taken from the King James Version.





III
CONCEPT OF GOD IN OLD TESTAMENT:

1.
God is One

The following verse from the book of Deuteronomy contains an exhortation from Moses (pbuh):

"Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adna Ikhad".
It is a Hebrew quotation which means:
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord"
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4]


2.
Unity of God in the Book of Isaiah

The following verses are from the Book of Isaiah:
    
(i)
"I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour."
[The Bible, Isaiah 43:11]

    
(ii)
"I am Lord, and there is none else, there is no God besides me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 45:5]

    
(iii)
"I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 46:9]


3.
Old Testament condemns idol worship

    
(i)
Old Testament condemns idol worship in the following verses:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Exodus 20:3-5]

    
(ii)
A similar message is repeated in the book of Deuteronomy:

"Thou shalt have none other gods before me."

"Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that in the earth beneath, or that is in the water beneath the earth."

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 5:7-9]


And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zulqarnain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2006 at 3:25am
Dr Naiks memory, understanding, knowledge is sooo great, (Mashallah), anybody will go nuts after seeing the number of lectures,talks, the type of answer he gives since he founded his organization. How can a person have soo much knowledge at the same time, except by Allah's Will and Bounty?
And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2006 at 8:23am

[QUOTE=zulqarnain]Answer by Dr. Naik

Position of Jesus (peace be on him) in Islam:

(i)
Islam is the only non-Christian faith, which makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus (pbuh). No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus (pbuh).

What does "believe in Jesus" mean?  I think it is more accurate to say that your article of faith is to recognize that Jesus was a prophet.  So do Christians.  But if you are commanded to believe in Jesus, then you must believe all that he was and you will find that in the Gospels and that includes that he was the King Messiah.

You can't believe in someone you don't fully know.

(ii)
We believe that he was one of the mightiest Messengers of Allah (swt).

(iii)
We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians do not believe.

(iv)
We believe he was the Messiah translated Christ (pbuh).

Not according to what I have read on this forum.  You believe that Jesus was just another annointed one, but you do not believe that he was the long-hoped for Messiah that the Christians believe he was and you do not believe what the Jews believe about this long-hoped for Messiah and are still waiting for.

It is interesting that the Qur'an mentions the word Messiah when speaking of Jesus, but does not give any other annointed one that title.


(v)
We believe that he gave life to the dead with God�s permission.

(iv)
We believe that he healed those born blind, and the lepers with God�s permission.

II
CONCEPT OF GOD IN CHRISTIANITY:

1.
Jesus Christ (pbuh) never claimed Divinity

Christians and Messanic Jews believe that he did claim divinity.

C

y ask, if both Muslims and Christians love and respect Jesus (pbuh), where exactly is the parting of ways? The major difference between Islam and Christianity is the Christians� insistence on the supposed divinity of Christ (pbuh). A study of the Christian scriptures reveals that Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. In fact there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself says, "I am God" or where he says, "worship me". In fact the Bible contains statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in which he preached quite the contrary. The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh):

(i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28] 

This statement does not conflict with the concept of the Trinity.  Perhaps Naik does not understand the concept.  The Father is the greater in office.  The Father gives commands and the son follows them.  We believe in One God, one Being to relates to us in three ways.


) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "�I cast out devils by the Spirit of God�."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "�I with the finger of God cast out devils�."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." [The Bible, John 5:30] 

None of the above conflicts with the concept of the Trinity.

If you believe in Jesus, why don't you follow him?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2006 at 8:24am

Originally posted by zulqarnain zulqarnain wrote:

Dr Naiks memory, understanding, knowledge is sooo great, (Mashallah), anybody will go nuts after seeing the number of lectures,talks, the type of answer he gives since he founded his organization. How can a person have soo much knowledge at the same time, except by Allah's Will and Bounty?

Why don't you investigate a little and find out what ex-Muslim Ali Sina thinks of Naik?  They did have a debate.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zulqarnain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2006 at 8:52am
First of all is the writing only in red, yours?
And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2006 at 9:44am

George,

It's only on this site that I have heard of Dr. Naik through Zulqarnain and your goodself. I have always argued and debated you without quoting Deedat and others, while using my own analysis of the Bible.

You wrote:"What does "believe in Jesus" mean?  I think it is more accurate to say that your article of faith is to recognize that Jesus was a prophet.  So do Christians.  But if you are commanded to believe in Jesus, then you must believe all that he was and you will find that in the Gospels and that includes that he was the King Messiah."

My question: The Jews were promised a Messiah. How was that changed to mean a King Messiah?

I believe in what Jesus said in his own words which I derive from the gospels but I am not bound to accept all the statements and opinions and narrations of a writer of the gospel, when there were four of them, each telling his account of others' accounts.

From you: "You can't believe in someone you don't fully know."

Yes, we can and so can you. All it takes is to read what is written, analyse and behold everything is clear.

From you: "Not according to what I have read on this forum.  You believe that Jesus was just another annointed one, but you do not believe that he was the long-hoped for Messiah that the Christians believe he was and you do not believe what the Jews believe about this long-hoped for Messiah and are still waiting for."

the Qur'an mentions the word Messiah when speaking of Jesus, but does not give any other annointed one that title."

We believe that he was the Messiah promised to the Jews but the Jews did not believe that. Qur'aan uses the word Messiah to tell the Jews that Jesus was the one promised to the Jews, but when he came, they refused to accept him. We are on your side on this but we don't think he was supposed to be some kind of King Messiah.

From you:"Christians and Messanic Jews believe that he did claim divinity."

Firstly, a Jew is a Jew. Messianic Jews are Christians. Period. It's just another brand name. The main wish of the Messianic Jews, as they claim, is the restoration of the glory of Israeall according to the Old Testament. They can be easily classified as converts to Christianity while maintaining Judaism and it's prejudices.

Believing that Jesus claimed divinity is NO good reasoning. It has to be either that Jesus said plainly that he was Divine or simply he did not. It does not prove that he was Divine by saying that he claimed, which he himself did not say.This was the opinion of scholars after he was long gone.

From you:"The Father gives commands and the son follows them. We believe in One God, one Being to relates to us in three ways."

The Father gives commands so the son obeys. It already proves that Father is the boss. There are clearly two separate beings in that statement. Where does the third, the Holy Spirit fit in here?

We believe in all messengers or prophets of God. We believe they were servants of God as told by Qur'aan and Muhammad, the last servant of God.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2006 at 9:54am

Originally posted by zulqarnain zulqarnain wrote:

First of all is the writing only in red, yours?

If you are talking to me, yes. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2006 at 10:08am
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

George,

It's only on this site that I have heard of Dr. Naik through Zulqarnain and your goodself. I have always argued and debated you without quoting Deedat and others, while using my own analysis of the Bible.

You wrote:"What does "believe in Jesus" mean?  I think it is more accurate to say that your article of faith is to recognize that Jesus was a prophet.  So do Christians.  But if you are commanded to believe in Jesus, then you must believe all that he was and you will find that in the Gospels and that includes that he was the King Messiah."

My question: The Jews were promised a Messiah. How was that changed to mean a King Messiah?

You have never heard of the King of the Jews?

I believe in what Jesus said in his own words which I derive from the gospels but I am not bound to accept all the statements and opinions and narrations of a writer of the gospel, when there were four of them, each telling his account of others' accounts.

Your choice, but it is very important that you read the reaction of the Jews and Jesus' disciples to his words. You put faith in the Hadith Collections do you not?

From you: "You can't believe in someone you don't fully know."

Yes, we can and so can you. All it takes is to read what is written, analyse and behold everything is clear.

We are talking about Jesus.  The Jesus in the Qur'an is incomplete.  You need the Gospels to know who Jesus is and you need the rest of the New Testament to find out what the followers of Jesus thought about who he is.

From you: "Not according to what I have read on this forum.  You believe that Jesus was just another annointed one, but you do not believe that he was the long-hoped for Messiah that the Christians believe he was and you do not believe what the Jews believe about this long-hoped for Messiah and are still waiting for."

the Qur'an mentions the word Messiah when speaking of Jesus, but does not give any other annointed one that title."

We believe that he was the Messiah promised to the Jews but the Jews did not believe that. Qur'aan uses the word Messiah to tell the Jews that Jesus was the one promised to the Jews, but when he came, they refused to accept him. We are on your side on this but we don't think he was supposed to be some kind of King Messiah.

You belief that Jesus was a prophet annointed by Allah and nothing more.  You don't accept Jesus as Messiah in the sense of the one promised to come.  Should I get some of your previous statements on this subject, BMZ?  You know I can do that.  Should I start calling you "Buggs" for Buggs Bunny instead of "Spot."  The Buggs jumps from one side of the fence to the other.  Can't seem to make up his mind. 

From you:"Christians and Messanic Jews believe that he did claim divinity."

Firstly, a Jew is a Jew. Messianic Jews are Christians. Period. It's just another brand name. The main wish of the Messianic Jews, as they claim, is the restoration of the glory of Israeall according to the Old Testament. They can be easily classified as converts to Christianity while maintaining Judaism and it's prejudices.

A Jew is a Jew by birth. Some of them are experts in the Torah and the Hebrew Scriptures written in Hebrew.  The only difference is that they disagree with the rest of the Jews.

Believing that Jesus claimed divinity is NO good reasoning. It has to be either that Jesus said plainly that he was Divine or simply he did not. It does not prove that he was Divine by saying that he claimed, which he himself did not say.This was the opinion of scholars after he was long gone.

You are incorrect.  All Jesus' disciples believed in his divinity and claims to divinity.  His divinity was validated by God.

From you:"The Father gives commands and the son follows them. We believe in One God, one Being to relates to us in three ways."

The Father gives commands so the son obeys. It already proves that Father is the boss. There are clearly two separate beings in that statement. Where does the third, the Holy Spirit fit in here?

Yes, the Father is the "boss."  I said that.  There are not two separate beings; there is only one Being.  We cannot separate God from his word or his spirit, anymore than I can separate my word or my spirit from me.  I am surprised at you, BMZ.  How could you have read so much about the concept of the Trinity and remembered none of it?

We believe in all messengers or prophets of God. We believe they were servants of God as told by Qur'aan and Muhammad, the last servant of God.

Jesus came as a servant of God at his first coming.  Christians do not believe that Muhammad was one of God's prophets and you know that.  You are entitled to believe what ever you want to believe.

And, you are forgetting the Jesus was also human.

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