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Sign*Reader 
Senior Member 
Joined: 02 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3352 |
 Posted: 02 May 2008 at 8:26pm |
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Although we have discussed
this issue many times on this forum, the trends of intolerence are still a
reality in many global communities. It is unfortunate that, with the espousal
of praising God with our lips we contradict our spiritual morality by being
intolerent of others because of their "difference." Global
communities are vague, you need to be specific! I reckon if you made the thread here, you must mean Islamic! What you
label intolerance might be necessary to keep the filth out! To what am
I referring you may wonder? Enough homo--- words in the thread to kill that suspense! Many
individuals do not understand how and why members of the same sex find
attraction to one another. Why do they need to? It is
sanctioned by Allah as punishable promiscuous behavior! Although we may disagree with the practice on
a religious level in accordance to the faith it is important enough to
understand why human beings are so different in this aspect. There can be no acknowledgement of
a PC�ed homosexuality in faith based environment. In this category you may add
any other sexual abnormal behaviors. To dispel
some myths: 1) Being
homosexual is not a disease 2) Being
homosexual is not a curse 3) Being
homosexual is not a genetic defect (I'm
going against the grain here). 4) Being
homosexual does not mean you have an oversexual behavior. 5) Being
homosexual does not mean you are against God. What
ever myths you have attempted to dispel may be futile cuz they are lot more
than those myths! IT is debauchery. Are you one? The reason
I'm stating these reason here is because I've notice that even today some f our
languages have rendered themselves intolerant towards others. I noticed mean
unwilling to give other men hugs they do not want to be categorized and labeled
as being a "fag" which I might say the latter is an intolerant and
inappropriate word to denote homosexuals. God calls for punishing them for their
lewd acts; in case of women it is even more sever ; Since Bill Clinton�s time
they are the most privileged minority in the "We're
here, we're queer, get used to it." We all must
understand that our sexual orientation is also facilitated socially, therefore
many of us who are attracted to the opposite sex may thank the society we live
in that helps us become attracted to the opposite sex. As of now, there is no
conclusive evidence that states that we are inheritently heterossexual save
certain studys on hormonal studies by biologist on attraction. but even if
social conditioning was not the case for our attraction for the opposite sex
can anyone us explain word for word why we are attracted to the opposite sex
that is not commonly found in culture? Surely a woman cannot say she is
attracted solely to men because
she likes men. this is vague, therefore can each of us explain why we are
attracted to the opposite sex? Of course not. Just like we cannot explain how
we love someone. Certain behaviors simply cannot be explained. On a
similar note, many homosexuals derive their explanations from this reality.
Even in an heterosexual environment, many homosexuals still cling to
"internal" feelings they themselves cannot even explain. So how do we
explain this? By helping them fight against a possible biological urge? By
praying for them? By telling them to repent to God? Isn't it a bigger crime for
one to deny one's trueself? Or does this mean that we've come to a problem here
with respect to doctrine and God being the author of things? More
importantly I find what makes this issue problematic is the dialetical language
we use to denote homosexuals. In today's
research we are looking at genetic differences between homosexual brains and
heterosexual brains. Although this is intriguing research, ethically speaking
one could use the genetic defect arguement to denote homosexuality as a genetic
defect of the human brain which would render someones sincere feelings a
deffective effect of their brain chemistry. This is truly wrong science if this
was the case. Just as
there are biological differences in ethnic groups we must also accept
sociological/biological differences in sexual orientation even if we at the
core of our beliefs disagree with them. This
is gibberish; how confused can you get? I find you in a sea of moral confusion. You
aught to be ashamed of yourself for making this thread as supposed to be a
Muslim! Homosexuality is an abomination,
and wouldn�t advocate "tolerance" of a perverse behavior, any more than would teach
"tolerance" of pedophilia or other sexual predators in the community! Edited by Sign*Reader - 02 May 2008 at 8:29pm |
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Ron Webb
Senior Member
Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
Posted: 03 May 2008 at 7:08am |
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Yes, I think that is essentially what Israfil is saying, though your insinuation that Israfil is homosexual is offensive and inappropriate. The greatest sin, the single unforgivable sin according to the Quran, is shirk. Millions of Muslims live in communities of (alleged) mushriks, and yet we do our best to tolerate one another and even to treat each other with mutual respect and fairness. That is all most homosexuals want, and it is no less than they deserve. Nobody is asking you to like what they do, or even to approve of it. They are asking you to tolerate them, to understand that their sexuality is none of your business, and leave it to Allah to judge them as He will.
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Israfil
Senior Member
Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984 |
Posted: 03 May 2008 at 6:00pm |
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I have to say that Sign Reader has reached the Zenith of his own ignorance.
Are there more myths I could have listed? Yes.
But my primary reason for making this thread was to promote tolerance whether you accept people of this particular sexual orientation is of your choice. I find it contradictory and hypocritical of Muslims here to talk about how we want others to accept our faith and distinguish us from those who commit crime in the name of Islam yet, we will not tolerate other human beings simply because of their sexual orientation. And our reason? Because we call it an abonination and a disease comparable to pedophilia.
Sign Reader your post is one of the dumbest I've ever seen and the dumbest remark of the day. If tolerating people regardles sof their sexual orientation means ex-communicating me from the Muslim community then I'll gladly accept it. I'd rather live with human beings who are different than me and can respect me for who I am than self-righteous, ignorant religious A-holes like yourself. Your are ignorance incarnate by the fact that you can quote a Quranic verse and then judge me on my own morality. If there is a joke to be heard its your cognition (or lack thereof).
Obviously people didn't read the damn carefully (with the exception of Ron) when I said "Homosexuality is not a disease." In research we find similar behavior in animals and it is very well in the animal kingdom, so with this in mind are we going to say that all animals are diseased?
If you are st**id enough to question my sexuality then you don't have to worry for I love women. I want children of my own genes and want marriage. I thank God for coolness of my temperment because the younger me would have wnated to break your neck for making such comments. I highly doubt you would say that to my face and not end up with permanent injuries to your face. To you sign reader I am not Muslim and I'll gladly accept my disassociation with you or you ilk GLADLY!
Semar
It is non-sensical to say homosexuality is equated with someone who commits acts of murder/crime. That is like saying people who choose to like the color red are more likely to rob banks. You cannot compare two totally different things and link them together. If you were to present this to the scientific community you'd get laughed at. You surely cannot use the story of LOT to support your argument. How can you say homosexuality was the cause of their behavior? Aren't there other elements that may have caused their behavior?
Quite obviously those people in the time of Lot being Homosexual, was not the sole reason for their behavior. Perhaps the people did not have a strong found of faith (obviously) or were in to heavy drugs or were into a multitude of things. We should take into account the possible reasons why they believed what they did. Just because the Qur'an doesn't mention it doesn't mean it doesn't ever exist. It is good to critically think on these issues. Using the story of Lot is a weak argument.
I certainly find many Islamicity members to be very hypocritical when it comes to tolerance. The fact that you cannot tolerate someone simply because of their sexuality I find equated with NOT accepting someone because of their race. In many instances, people do not choose their sexuality many individuals feel "they just are" that way. The fact that many of you can classify this as a disease is insulting and a shame. The fact that others outside the community can see how intolerant some of your comments are will not win converts nor will it show how accpeting of 'difference' Muslims are. This is why I'm always on many of your cases when it comes to those political issues you say the U.S. has caused. Instead of whinning about another country we dont focus on what is at home in our community.
Sign Reader the fact that you couldn't make a comment without insulting me runs high. So I'll give you the same warning I gave Whisper a long time ago. Each time you make a person attack on me without provocation I will get person 10x back towards you. This thread was supposed to be about discussing the those differences of our opinions. If you disagree with me fine! But don't make insulting remarks and especially question my sexuality infront of others. Consider this your first and last warning. The moderators may be sleeping on your st**idity but I won't stand it here. The fact that your insulting post got through for approval is amazing.
Edited by Israfil - 03 May 2008 at 6:01pm |
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Hayfa
Senior Member
Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368 |
Posted: 04 May 2008 at 6:47pm |
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Israfil.. you are definitely trying your best..
Its funny people talk about this canot be "tolerated" etc. And funnily today I went to the masjid for "fun fest" and I sat along for 1 and a quarter hours by myself. Now I understand that the men might not be "friendly" but to sit along, most people did not say salaams, people just walked by, few smiled. Even when alone with two women they chose to speak another language (and they knew English)... but no one went out of their way to come back. And one wonders why new Muslims don't often stick around... sad just sad
Maybe tonight.. I don't understand many Muslims at all....
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Israfil
Senior Member
Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984 |
Posted: 04 May 2008 at 10:31pm |
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Wa Salaam Sr. Hayfa,
I appreciate the words of encouragement and appreciate you taking the time to read the thread. It is indeed unfortunate that in today's world human beings are still stuck in their shallow mindset. I too feel that I do not understand Muslims at all. It has become more evident here on the world wide web than it has in actuality. Since my inception in this website since '03 it has become quite evident here that there are just some individuals if not the majority of Muslims on this website who do not accept people for who they are out of sheer ignorance and arrgoance.
Of course anyone here can try a rebuttal by simply saying it says in the Qur'an this and that are bad. I understand there is that fine line where we take into account the Quranic and Hadith text but how far do we interpret those words into intolerable actions played out by us? I wonder in my own questioning if God indeed is the author of our bological processes then, by knowing that homosexuality is the result of biological and social processes and knowingly leads to sin and knowing that it is more impulsive than will why allow humans to behave that way? I wonder if God would share into that accountability.
If indeed sexual orientation is impulsive than will (will denotes the ability to consciously act whereas impulse is purely spontaneous reaction) then how can we hold people accountable? If Islamic morality is not universal among people and if there are individuals who sincerely do not agree with some of Islamic practices then to what truth are homosexuals accountable for? There are so many unanswered questions but I've resolves the issue within myself by simply knowing that homosexuality in practice, is still consdiered taboo in many of the patriarchal socities and communities in which conservative, heterosexual attitudes are still evident.
The fact that we as a people in the United States (or aborad) cannot elect an official of important status simply because of their sexual orientation is amazing. through history we can see +200 years back no person in the U.S. would ever think there would be an African-American candidate running for the presidency (or a woman). I guess I can say through my own skepticism of our ambiguous world there is some optimism I do share about the future.
I do hope mainstream Muslims at least here can get over their own ignorance regarding other human beings and begin to define 'tolerance' in a more fluid definition. Although it is not surprising that we still have muslims here who defend cultural exclusion in marriage, therefore it shouldn't be an even greater surprise that Muslims will here at least will nont tolerate gays. I wonder when we will get to a point where we alleviate ourselves from our own hypocrisy and moral confusion as (Sign Reader points out I have)?
I don't think we will anytime soon.......
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semar
Senior Member 
Male Islam Joined: 11 March 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1830 |
Posted: 04 May 2008 at 11:53pm |
Israfil, I compared homosexuality with serial killer just to make the statement stronger. If I compared homosexuality with "anger management disorder" or other "psychological disorder" will be so plain, probably nobody will give any comment. Another reason that I took this example because both of the activity islamically have very serious violation to the faith.
"the scientific community you'd get laughed at", maybe yes maybe not.
Just in August, 1997, the Council of Representatives of the American Psychological Association approved a resolution that homosexuality is not a disorder. So if we can not say this is recently at least this is not long ago. And very sure this is not pure scientific decision but had very strong political aroma because 'homosexual community is getting bigger and gain more political muscle.
Yes, I agree that this (psychological disorder) is not the only cause, and could be combinations of many, even I believe the main reason they "perform homosexual activity", because lack of faith.
I understand many peoples very hesitant to against homosexual because if we see just "physically" it'll not heart anybody, the response just like sexual intercourse outside marriage. But both of them religiously have very serious consequence. I also believe both of them create social problem. Broken home that caused childs abandoned that initiated by outside marriage sex intercourse of spauses are very common this days. If the percentage homosexual is getting bigger the population will shrink, even now (2007) the US white population is already shrink because many of them are not marriage, who are marriage, large percentage of them are only have one child, and very-very small percentage have more than 2 children. The year 2007 is the milestone that the percentage of American adults who are single more than 50%.
Just for additional reading:
- homosexual is cure-able
- Facts About Homosexuality and Mental Health http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_mental_health.html Edited by semar - 05 May 2008 at 2:41pm |
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Salam/Peace,
Semar "We are people who do not eat until we are hungry and do not eat to our fill." (Prophet Muhammad PBUH) "1/3 of your stomach for food, 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air" |
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Sign*Reader
Senior Member
Joined: 02 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3352 |
Posted: 05 May 2008 at 12:51am |
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I have to say that Sign Reader has reached the Zenith of his own ignorance. Thank you very much for
the nasty response! My ignorance is fine as long as
I can follow the Allah�s go no go gage i.e, Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) 3:104 Let there arise out of you a band of
people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding
what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity. But my primary reason for making this thread was to promote tolerance whether you accept people of this particular sexual orientation is of your choice. You need to get one thing
through your thick skull that when it comes to matters Islamic neither of us could take liberty about the clearly addressed issues
by God in the scriptures. 4:15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the
evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if
they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain
for them some (other) way. Islam is faith of clean living with modesty and the homos�y is life of filthy living by design and being against God �s word. It is like you telling others to tolerate parasites! If they cannot procreate where would they get their new members from? the regular population You want them around your family and children good luck! I find it contradictory and hypocritical of Muslims here to talk about how we want others to accept our faith and distinguish us from those who commit crime in the name of Islam yet, we will not tolerate other human beings simply because of their sexual orientation. Well; that is a wrongly ASS U Med proposition. Haven�t heard if the Muslims accept H/S't'y, they will be received with open arms and would be safe from the islamophobia! The condition of
Muslims is not going to get better coming out of bondage of colonialism any time soon even if they start tolerating homos. Their
condition needs lot more introspection about the poor practice of their faith
in order to get out of the condition they are in!. The homos have lot more
privileges in the And our reason? Because we call it an abonination and a disease comparable to pedophilia. Studies have revealed that new
recruits do have homosexual contacts in their formative years that were
overlooked by the parents or any responsible adults It tells about how enlightened
background you come from and I am not surprised, I wonder what kind of neighborhood
is your beat is in? You can kiss and hug anyone what
the heck I care! Your are ignorance incarnate by the fact that you can quote a Quranic verse and then judge me on my own morality. If there is a joke to be heard its your cognition (or lack thereof). You are demanding some thing before proving your point, after all this an Islamic matter you conveniently are ignoring at your own peril! You can do all the name calling
your kind are good at, it doesn�t bother me at all! I don�t need to judge anyone,
this is internet- in fact you are self incriminating yourself!
Obviously people didn't read the damn carefully (with the
exception of Ron) when I said "Homosexuality is not a disease." In research we find similar behavior in
animals and it is very well in the animal kingdom, so with this in mind are we
going to say that all animals are diseased? I agree it is not a disease but
the numbers don�t lie they do carry more disease than others! Their life spans
are no where near the normal population! If the male monkeys hang out
together doesn�t mean they are our role models! What an argument? Ron being in If you are st**id enough to question my sexuality then you don't have to worry for I love women. I want children of my own genes and want marriage. I thank God for coolness of my temperment because the younger me would have wnated to break your neck for making such comments. I highly doubt you would say that to my face and not end up with permanent injuries to your face. To you sign reader I am not Muslim and I'll gladly accept my disassociation with you or you ilk GLADLY! What the heck I care about your
orientation! But birds of a feather flock
together saying has some truth in it! Thank goodness IM on the
internet, telling you off on face to face will of course be st**id, whose role
models happen to be homosexual animals! I think you have
psychological issues cuz of race based personal encounters and need to get In many
instances, people do not choose their sexuality many individuals feel
"they just are" that way. The fact that many of you can classify this
as a disease is insulting and a shame. It may not be a disease per
se but it sure is abomination and lewd behavior a step toward disease and
misery! MEDICAL CONSEQUENCES OF WHAT
HOMOSEXUALS DO The fact that
others outside the community can see how intolerant some of your comments are will not win converts nor will it show
how accpeting of 'difference' Muslims are. Quality always beats
quantity! This is why I'm
always on many of your cases when it comes to those political issues you say
the Shows the level of your
comprehension; you are shouting at the internet forum on what to do!
Sign Reader the fact that you couldn't make a comment
without insulting me runs high. So I'll give you the same warning I gave
Whisper a long time ago. Each time you make a person attack on me without
provocation I will get person 10x back towards you. LOL do you consider yourself
in Whisper�s class�dream on brother! Why would I insult you? As
matter of fact I just gave you some facts and a question and you say I insulted
you! How weird! This thread was supposed to be about discussing the
those differences of our opinions. If you disagree with me fine! But don't make
insulting remarks and especially question my sexuality infront of others.
Consider this your first and last warning. The moderators may be sleeping on
your st**idity but I won't stand it here. The fact that your insulting post got
through for approval is amazing. The amazing thing is that
you want some special privileges like� the head I win tail you lose� I will not let you get past the first base if you
do another dumb attempt in starting an anti Quranic thread no matter how
intelligent you think of yourself!!! If it is such a normal thing
why did Jim McGreevey & Mark Foley resigned after their homosex�l behavior
came to surface ?
Edited by Sign*Reader - 05 May 2008 at 1:20am |
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Israfil
Senior Member
Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984 |
Posted: 05 May 2008 at 9:37am |
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Semar,
The reason the scientific/psychological community (one which I am apart of) considers homosexuality NOT to be a disorder is because of the ethical stipulations of labeling a sexual orientation as a disorder. That is to say, if one has a compulsion of attraction to the same sex then to label such an attraction a disorder is to create a stigma based upon one's own sexuality which is ultimately wrong.
I believe the main reason they "perform homosexual activity", because lack of faith.
The problem with this statement is that it reeks of stereotypical and prejudicial garb. what is homosexual activity? Are you referring to simply homsexual, sexual, activity? First off, when you see people who are gay or lesbian why would you automatically think of sexual intercourse or sexual things? Maybe its the social condition that you and/your social upbringing has developed. I have befriended many gays and lesbians who have regular lives like all of us. Many of these individuals hold down positions of importance and can perform the same as we heterosexual individuals do. Besides, if you don't have a choice in matters of sexuality how do you lack faith?
There is no distinction in behavior of a homosexual and a heterosexual except certain behavioral traits and sexual traits other than that they are human like us. It is unfortunate that when we think of homosexuality we equate it with the attitudes of the people of Lot as if that has so relevance to today's gays and lesbians. Remember, times have changed and the attitudes of people change. there are a lot of more individuals who are conscious of what is right and wrong and just because our standards are different doesn't give us the right to be intolerant.
Semar (and others) read the following:
S ince 1975, the American PsychologicalAssociation has called on psychologists to take the lead in removing the stigma of mental illness that has long been associated with lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations. The discipline of psychology is concerned with the well-being of people and groups and therefore with threats to that well-being. The prejudice and discrimination that people who identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual regularly experience have been shown to have negative psychological effects. How do people know if they are lesbian, gay, or bisexual? According to current scientific and professional understanding, the core attractions that form the basis for adult sexual orientation typically emerge between middle childhood and early adolescence. These patterns of emotional, romantic, and sexual attraction may arise without any prior sexual experience. People can be celibate and still know their sexual orientation-�be it lesbian, gay, bisexual, or heterosexual. Different lesbian, gay, and bisexual people have very different experiences regarding their sexual orientation. Some people know that they are lesbian, gay, or bisexual for a long time before they actually pursue relationships with other people. Some people engage in sexual activity (with same-sex and/or othersex partners) before assigning a clear label to their sexual orientation. Prejudice and discrimination make it difficult for many people to come to terms with their sexual orientation identities, so claiming a lesbian, gay, or bisexual identity may be a slow process. What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation? There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation. Is homosexuality a mental disorder? No, lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a mental disorder. What about therapy intended to change sexual orientation from gay to straight? All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons. This appears to be especially likely for lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals who grow up in more conservative religious settings. What is �coming out� and why is it important? The phrase �coming out� is used to refer to several aspects of lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons� experiences: self-awareness of same-sex attractions; the telling of one or a few people about these attractions; widespread disclosure of same-sex attractions; and identification with the lesbian, gay, and bisexual community. Many people hesitate to come out because of the risks of meeting prejudice and discrimination. Some choose to keep their identity a secret; some choose to come out in limited circumstances; some decide to come out in very public ways. Coming out is often an important psychological step for lesbian, gay, and bisexual people. Research has shown that feeling positively about one�s sexual orientation and integrating it into one�s life fosters greater well-being and mental health. What about sexual orientation and coming out during adolescence? Adolescence is a period when people separate from their parents and families and begin to develop autonomy. Adolescence can be a period of experimentation, and many youths may question their sexual feelings. Becoming aware of sexual feelings is a normal developmental task of adolescence. Sometimes adolescents have same-sex feelings or experiences that cause confusion about their sexual orientation. This confusion appears to decline over time, with different outcomes for different individuals. Some adolescents desire and engage in samesex behavior but do not identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual, sometimes because of the stigma associated with a nonheterosexual orientation. Can lesbians and gay men be good parents? Many lesbians and gay men are parents; others wish to be parents. In the 2000 U.S. Census, 33% of female same-sex couple households and 22% of male same-sex couple households reported at least one child under the age of 18 living in the home. Although comparable data are not available, many single lesbians and gay men are also parents, and many same-sex couples are part-time parents to children whose primary residence is elsewhere. You can read the entire pdf.file from the following link: http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.pdf
I believe my evidence here speaks volumes, besides this link is credible as if comes from the APA (American Psychological Association). Edited by Israfil - 05 May 2008 at 9:39am |
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Revisiting an "Old Issue"
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Israfil wrote: