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Akhe Abdullah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akhe Abdullah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2009 at 10:35pm
Salams Hasan good job May Allah reward you for your efforts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akhe Abdullah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2009 at 5:19am
Originally posted by Natassia Natassia wrote:

You said there is no forced conversion in Islam. But I must object to that statement. There seems to be plenty of examples of forced conversion/submission:


<FONT size=3 face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">Quran 9:5

There is no compulsion.They had a choice either or,when someone is forced to do something there is no choice,(example my mother made me go to church,if I didnt I would be on punishment)ie choice)They baptise infants(no choice)You have to read more,even some of the pagans said they believed then went astray,it was there choice.Do you see any captured Americans today being forced into Islam?simple you accept it or you dont lets move on.

Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 13 August 2009 at 5:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akhe Abdullah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2009 at 5:33am
Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah Akhe Abdullah wrote:

Originally posted by Natassia Natassia wrote:

You said there is no forced conversion in Islam. But I must object to that statement. There seems to be plenty of examples of forced conversion/submission:


<FONT size=3 face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">Quran 9:5

There is no compulsion.They had a choice either or,when someone is forced to do something there is no choice,(example my mother made me go to church,if I didnt I would be on punishment)ie choice)They baptise infants(no choice)You have to read more,even some of the pagans said they believed then went astray,it was there choice.Do you see any captured Americans today being forced into Islam?simple you accept it or you dont lets move on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2009 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by Natassia Natassia wrote:

@ honeto / Hasan

Jesus was not calling people animals because of their disbelief. Because of their behaviors, they were like pits of vipers. Have you read the entire passage to keep things in context?

And in Jude, it was comparing their way of thinking and abusing to be like unreasoning animals. Jude didn't say they WERE animals, let alone the VILEST of animals. And if you read the whole passage, these were immoral people who abused their own bodies and slandered God and celestial beings.

But according to the Quran, simply because I do not believe in Muhammad that makes me a disbeliever and therefore the worst of beasts. It has nothing to do with my behavior or love for God. It has to do with believing in Muhammad. I'm sorry, but that is rather bizarre to me.

Besides, according to the New Testament, there is no vile or unclean animal (ie pig) or human (ie Gentile)...so I cannot be lowered to the level of a pig or worse since all animals are equal, and in Christ all people are equal.

You said there is no forced conversion in Islam. But I must object to that statement. There seems to be plenty of examples of forced conversion/submission:

Quran 9:5

Quran 9:29

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 643

Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Numbers 29-35

Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4294

Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4366

Sahih Muslim, Book 31, Number 5917

Sahih Muslim, Book 31, Number 5918

 
 
Natassia,
I am glad we are in this talk. See a lot of what you regard as problems with the Quran is just due to problem with not studying them fully. How God All knowing can say something that is not consistent with His position as 'All aware'.
You mentioned 9:5
I read the whole Sura and its clear to me that there is nothing like what you are assuming of it. It deals with Muslims being under aggression by the enemies. Read the whole sura and you will realize that you rushed in your judgement.
Here is some part of the same sura that will explain to you the fact of the situation.
9:13 Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!"
I am not well versed on the Hadith, so I would not get into that.
On your not accepting the prophet, like we believe its your choice. But how can I not acknowledge his role in showing me the right way to worship my Creator? Isn't he the one who is only calling us to worship, not him, but our Creator and no one else, where is he wrong?
Would you not acknowledge and thank a brave firefighter as such who rescue you from a fire? thus we acknowledge the messenger as a servent of God, and we ask God to send His blessings on him through whom came the right guidence. Who only called us to come and worship his and our Creator. Acknowledging the messenger as a servent of God is only aknowledging his true position, nothing more, nothing less. We do not and cannot make him equal to God as Christians did with Jesus.
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 13 August 2009 at 2:16pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

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Natassia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Natassia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 August 2009 at 7:13am
Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah Akhe Abdullah wrote:

There is no compulsion.They had a choice either or,when someone is forced to do something there is no choice,(example my mother made me go to church,if I didnt I would be on punishment)ie choice)They baptise infants(no choice)You have to read more,even some of the pagans said they believed then went astray,it was there choice.Do you see any captured Americans today being forced into Islam?simple you accept it or you dont lets move on.
 
The following excerpt is from the Guardian Newspaper, August 6, 2009:
 
TEARS flowed freely from their eyes. Others sobbed and wept uncontrollably. As survivors of the recent sectarian crisis in some northern states narrated their ordeal and escape from the Boko Haram's den, even the most stoic among them broke down.

The scene was the cemetery of the Goodnews Church of Christ, Maiduguri, where its Pastor, George Orji, killed during the crisis by the fundamentalists, was buried yesterday in Maiduguri, Borno State capital. Three pastors and 15 other Christians were allegedly killed by the sect members during the violence.

But Northern Elders under the auspices of Arewa Consultative Forum (ACF) yesterday attributed such crisis in the country to the prevailing poverty and deprivation which they said the Federal Government has failed to address.

The Arewa Leaders said that Nigerians should see the Boko Haram mayhem in Bauchi, Yobe, Borno and Kano states, with the prolonged agitation by Niger Delta militants as protests by "those who feel aggrieved by the prevailing conditions in the country", noting that "this attitude is agitated by the widening gap between our affluent and ostentatious leaders and the broad masses of the poverty stricken and deprived people".

Also present at the meeting of its Board of Trustees (BOT) under the leadership of retired Lt.-General Jeremiah Useni in Kaduna to deliberate on emerging national issues were the ACF Chairman, General Ibrahim Haruna (rtd); Secretary General, Colonel Musa Shehu (rtd) and several other Arewa leaders.

Speaking at the event, Mr. Thomas Ali, a survivor along with other Christians, claimed that apart from being forced to adopt Islam, they were not freed after their conversion.

Ali alleged that some Christians were killed by the Islamic group, who also burnt 20 churches and killed the three pastors on Monday, July 27, 2009.

He told The Guardian that he was forced by the sect members to undergo some Islamic rites of initiation but could not recall how he escaped from the group's den.

Mr. Emmanuel Ndah, who was abducted along with Orji said: "When we told them our names, they knew that we were not Moslems and asked whether we would denounce our faith and accept Islam. However, Pastor Orji encouraged us not to accept Islam but to hold unto what we believe in. He was singing and praying all through and encouraging the believers not to give up even unto death.

"It was his encouragement that kept us till the time we were released. But the men outside killed so many of us Christians who were even forced into Islam. I could not say how I survived it, but I did by the Grace of God."

 
The following excerpt is from the Associated Press, May 17, 2007:
 
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan  �  Christians in a Pakistani town beset by pro-Taliban militants sought government protection Wednesday, the eve of a deadline for them to convert to Islam or face violence.

About 500 Pakistani Christians in Charsadda, a town in the North West Frontier Province bordering Afghanistan, received letters earlier this month telling them to close their churches and convert by Thursday or be the target of "bomb explosions."

Several Christians, a tiny minority in the predominantly Muslim country, have fled town and others are living in fear, community leaders said.

Some complained that police were not taking the threat seriously.

 
You're right, I guess.  Forced conversions don't happen anymore.  Just several hundred years ago.  And those perpetrators weren't really Muslims anyway.
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
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Natassia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Natassia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 August 2009 at 7:22am
@ Hasan
 
Sura 9 is not about self-defense.
 
First of all, ayah 5 speaks about "the pagans."  It doesn't differentiate between pagans who left Muhammad alone and pagans who forced him to leave Mecca.
 
Secondly, if sura 9 was really about self-defense, there would have been no stipulation of a 4 month waiting period.  According to 2:217, Muslims may fight in self-defense even during the sacred month.  In fact, they may even fight simply because they are not allowed in the Ka'aba.
 
So, if Muslims were really under attack when sura 9 is revealed, do you honestly think the Muslims would be sitting around for 4 months under aggressive persecution waiting until the time period was up to go slay pagans wherever they found them?
 
And the Christians and Jews weren't attacking Muslims.  So, why was 9:29 revealed?
 
I came across plenty of commentary regarding 9:29.  The people of the Book are to have their authority wrested from them by the Islamic armies and they are to be subjected to the humiliation of the jizya.
 
Please check out the following tafsirs:
 
Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Tafsir al-Jalalayn
Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an
Tanw�r al-Miqb�s min Tafs�r Ibn �Abb�s
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
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Akhe Abdullah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akhe Abdullah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 August 2009 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by Natassia Natassia wrote:

You're right, I guess.� Forced conversions don't happen anymore.� Just several hundred years ago.� And those perpetrators weren't really Muslims anyway.
Several African Slaves were robbed of there freedom and religion(Islam) when they were brought to America and made to be Christians,which started a tremendous cycle throughout generations. How's that for force?True story,To be forced to do anything against your will is terrible no matter who's doing it.

Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 31 August 2009 at 8:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akhe Abdullah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 August 2009 at 9:27pm
Originally posted by Natassia Natassia wrote:

Sura 9 is not about self-defense.[
9:1 (Y. Ali) A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Al Tawbah:The Repentenceor Bara'ah(The Disavowal) Intro.Treaties with those Pagans who have treacherously broken their terms are denounced.but four months'time is given for adjustments or repentence.Pagans to be excluded from the sacred Mosues.Infidelity to be fought(9:1-29 and C.93)                                                    The People of the Book have obscured the light of Allah,but the Truth of Allah must prevail over all.We must be ready to fight for the Faith that is in us:otherwise we shall be unworthy to uphold Allah's banner,and He will raise other people in our place(9:30-42 and C.94)[ The Hypocrites and their double dealing:their evil ways pointed out.Their punishment will be as sure as the blessing of the righteous(9:43-72 and C. 95All evil should be resisted,unless there is repentence:falsehood is not content with breach of faith but mocks all good:it should not be envied but shunned(9:73-99, and C 94)To make a long story short Surah 9 AlTawbah is about repentanceAl Tawbah is also a warning thats why it doesnt start with BismillahThere's alot you dont know about The Qur'an just because you read dont mean you understand thats you're first mistake,you will do better if you just keep to asking questions and quit acting like you know what you talking about.

Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 17 August 2009 at 10:58pm
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