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Topic ClosedMuhammad and Joseph Smith

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Angela View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 8:51am
Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

 
One prophet hid in a cave for a couple of years and another hid in a cabin.  Both claim to have been visited by an angel then with revelations.  Neither have any proof.  The revelations of both are written by others (and later added to or rewritten).  Both die (Smith is allegedly murdered and Muhammad (according to IslamiCity History section) dies) without any observed visitation by angels.
THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris
 
THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

http://www.outfitters.com/illinois/hancock/history_carthage. html

1844- Joseph Smith, founder of Mormon Church, and his brother Hyrum Smith were shot today in the old Carthage jail.
The Mormon Church was headquartered in Nauvoo in 1839. When Mormon leaders destroyed an anti-Mormon newspaper in Nauvoo, the Smiths were jailed at Carthage to await trial. Illinois Governor Thomas Ford ordered the Carthage Grays militia unit to guard the jail from an anti-Mormon mob. The mob overpowered the guard (some believe the guard joined the mob), entered the jail, shot the Smiths, and wounded another Mormon, John Taylor.

 
Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

What "test" does a believer in God use to determine a true prophet and a false prophet?

Its called prayer and the Holy Ghost.  You ask in sincerity and open yourself to the promptings of the Holy Spirit of God.  Muslims call this Salat al-istikhara.

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Angela View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 9:25am

Saint Michael. 

You are right...there were more than 2...there were more.  24 is the officially recognized number of sealings.  33 is generally accepted but not provable and 48 is the largest number.  However, there is a big difference between sealing and marriage.  Here's an excerpt from answers.com

Originally posted by Answers.com Answers.com wrote:

Sealing vs Marriage

There is a subtle difference between 'sealing' (which is a priesthood ordinance that binds individuals together in the eternities), and 'marriage' (a social tradition in which the man and woman agree to be husband and wife in this life). In those early days of this religion, common practices and doctrines were not yet well-defined. It is speculated that many, if not all, of the arrangements between Smith and these women were more in alignment with the concept of sealings, not marriages, in the sense that Smith did not join with any of these women, except for Emma, in a family unit.

Even among those who accept the views of conventional historians, there is disagreement as to the precise number of wives Smith had: Fawn Brodie lists 48, D. Michael Quinn 46, and George D. Smith 43. A number of Joseph's marriages occurred after his death, with the wife being sealed to Joseph via a proxy that stood in for him. The LDS Church's genealogical website lists 24 marriages for Smith, four of which are indicated to have taken place after his death. One historian, Todd M. Compton, documented at least thirty-three plural marriages or sealings during Smith's lifetime. Many people think it is without question that Joseph had multiple wives; but, as Compton states multiple times in his work, "Absolutely nothing is known of this marriage after the ceremony"�that is, it is unclear how many of the women Smith had sexual relations with. There are allegations that Smith had at least one child born to a plural wife, but this remains unproven.

http://www.answers.com/topic/joseph-smith-jr-and-polygamy

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 9:40am
Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Saint Michael. 

You are right...there were more than 2...there were more.  24 is the officially recognized number of sealings.  33 is generally accepted but not provable and 48 is the largest number.  However, there is a big difference between sealing and marriage.  Here's an excerpt from answers.com

 

Anjela I understand the difference between sealing and marriage (for time).  However in D&C 132 Joseph Smith is commanded to take mroe wives to "raise up the seed".  Now how is sealing only for eternity "raising up the seed" in accordance with D&C132?  Brigham Young and later prophets did not follow that example?  They clearly consumated their marriages.

Emma Hale
Fanny Alger
Lucinda Morgan Harris
Louisa Beaman
Zina Huntington Jacobs
Presendia Huntington Buell
Agnes Coolbrith
Sylvia Sessions Lyon
Mary Rollins Lightner
Patty Bartlett Sessions
Marinda Johnson Hyde
Elizabeth Davis Durfee
Sarah Kingsley Cleveland
Delcena Johnson
Eliza R. Snow
Sarah Ann Whitney
Martha McBride Knight
Ruth Vose Sayers
Flora Ann Woodworth
Emily Dow Partridge
Eliza Maria Partridge
Almera Johnson
Lucy Walker
Sarah Lawrence
Maria Lawrence
Helen Mar Kimball
Hanna Ells
Elvira Cowles Holmes
Rhoda Richards
Desdemona Fullmer
Olive Frost
Melissa Lott
Nancy Winchester
Fanny Young
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These are Joseph Smith's wives, including I think 10 that were already married to LDS men.  Most of these marraiges were hidden from the public eye and even lied about.  So to say that Joseph Smith  ONLY was sealed to other women AFTER his death is patently false.

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Angela View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 10:22am

St. Michael,

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=290

Quote So to say that Joseph Smith  ONLY was sealed to other women AFTER his death is patently false.

I actually stated the official geneological record states that FOUR of the TWENTY FOUR recognized wives were postumous.  There are many lies that you can find in older anti-mormon sources that inflat the number of wives that he had taken.  Needless to say...Polygamy is an accepted concept even if its no longer practiced.  Therefore, I don't really care of Joseph had 700 wives.  I really doesn't change my opinion of the man or my testimony of the Book of Mormon. 

If God ordered Prophet Hinckley to reinstate Polygamy tomorrow, I would be one of the first women to welcome its return.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

I am struck by the similiarities between Muhammad (Islam) and Joseph Smith (Mormons).

Similarities do not cover differences but through bias.

Quote

Both were visited by "Angels" and received revelations. 

Quote

 

Angels have been known to carry messages from Gd throughout time. So this similarity should create awe in you? That is, if the two accounts "struck you", then the multitude of times angels brought messages to man should create awe?

[quote]

 

 Both had their revelations written by others.

The Quran was recorded, as a means that is minor in comparison to the major means of recording which is memory.

The Quran is a recitation, and meant to me recited.

[quote]

 

  Both acknowledged the existences of Christ.  Both were men of violence.  Both were men of many wifes...etc.

What are the differences?

Another complex question.

You "handwaved" through your comparisons, leaving a great many unresolved points that you seem to want readers to accept willingly and without thought.

Two people believing that Jesus existed does not tell us anything about the two people. IN other words, in a comparison analogy, we look at the primary attributes of the things. Two people breathing air does not allow on to draw any solid conclusion abut the similarities between the two people. These attributes would only allow a general conclusion.

 

 

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 4:28pm

I'm sorry I did not realize that asking "What are the differences" between Muhammad (Islam) and Smith (Mormonism) was that complex of a question.

I guess that my point is that as a casual reader of the Qur'an (and its history) and the Book of Mormon (and its history) I really don't see any significant differences.

Without any significant differences, then I must question whether both or either books/religions are of God or of man

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

I'm sorry I did not realize that asking "What are the differences" between Muhammad (Islam) and Smith (Mormonism) was that complex of a question.

A complex question was in reference to a question you gave that had at its bases an assumption that was neither proven or argued.

Quote

I guess that my point is that as a casual reader of the Qur'an (and its history) and the Book of Mormon (and its history) I really don't see any significant differences.

That is your opinion.

Millions do not agree, and that is why some adhere to the book of Mormon and some do not.

We have a Mormon on the forum, and any indepth discussion would not be beneficial.

Quote

Without any significant differences, then I must question whether both or either books/religions are of God or of man

If you could not find any significant differences, then I might suggest more than a cursory read. I have read the book of Mormon, and there are significant differences.

If this is your opinion and you feel what you think is true, then you are free to think this.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 7:54pm

"A complex question was in reference to a question you gave that had at its bases an assumption that was neither proven or argued."

What assumption was that?

 

 

"Without any significant differences, then I must question whether both or either books/religions are of God or of man"

"If you could not find any significant differences, then I might suggest more than a cursory read. I have read the book of Mormon, and there are significant differences.

If this is your opinion and you feel what you think is true, then you are free to think this."

I was hoping you would mention even ONE significant difference between the two prophets and their religions/books.  When I request ONE significant difference, I mean something more significant then their height, nationality, etc.

I would appreciate your knowledge in this matter instead of vague replies,

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