The Original Sin

I think Jesus was very clear in his Sermon on the Mount: "But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." But then, I don't think that Christianity is a "correct position" in itself, so I'm not sure how relevant that is.


Please state clearly what do you mean by, "I don't think that Christianity is a "correct position" in itself"?

And which doctrine do you subscribe to?

We would have to talk about a specific war, I think; but in general, I don't know of any nation that adopts those constraints consistently. Do you?

I know of none.

Yup, the BBC is normally a very reputable source. Unfortunately, where religion is concerned, all journalistic standards seem to fly out the window.

Why, in your opinion, is that so?

Probably. Most ideas are pacifist when they are weak, but are apt to change their character when they become strong. Salman Rushdie said something to that effect in The Satanic Verses.

He did. So, you are saying that when christianity had gained many followers it started ignoring Jesus PBUH?

What do you mean by "the Christian world"? The Western world (if that's what you mean) is primarily secular. But yes, there is frequent debate between the pro- and anti-war factions.

Yes, the western world has become synonymous with Christian world in recent times, particularly. And yes, I know the debate is still on.

Can anyone say anything with dead certainty? It's an interesting epistemological question, but not one I want to get into here. All I'll say is that it certainly looked like Bin Laden; and if it wasn't him, I kinda think he would have issued a swift denial.

Not if he was dead or in captivity. Not if he was a bogey.

I have more reason to be confident that Bin Laden was the author of that videotape than you have to be confident that Allah is the author of the Quran.

Very well. Since I have a multitude of reasons about Allah SWT being the author of the Quran, I am sure have a multitude x 2 Or, x 3, x 4.......... So, let us hear your reasons. This is going to be very, very interesting.

Which is exactly how I feel about the Quran. (Not to mention the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Mormon, and all the others.)

The Quran says there is no compulsion in Islam. The Quran does not dictate any rules to be enforced even against the will of the people. The Quran does not manufacture news. The Quran does not manipulate information. The Quran does not create intrigue. The Quran does not order holding people captive against their will. Therefore, your thoughts about the Quran are absurd.

In other words, not a Christian. I'm glad we have established that.

He was definitely not a Christian by definition. Just as IS, Al Qaeda and others of their ilk are not Muslims, if they commit the reported crimes.

The Saint: The Quran does not manipulate information.

The Quran doesn't do anything. It is the people manipulating in order to pimp "Gods word".
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Airmano Back-paddling from your original claim that he was a practicing christian ? The Saint No. I still maintain that he [Hitler] was a born christian.

Nobody put this into doubt - as I already wrote. Do you actually read more than the first line of other peoples posts ?
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then

Seriously, are these your secular sources ? (Airmano on behalf of an unknown bloke called Rao and (ab-)used as an example for a renowned supporter of Mohamed): Answer, The Saint: Yes. why?

Apparently you don't see the difference between secular and non-secular sources.

Airmano

Edited by airmano - 02 June 2015 at 2:34pm

I am a secular humanist. I don't believe in any supernatural beings or forces.

I see. Do you have beliefs related to morality, purpose of life and who, if anyone should we look up to?

Because religion is faith-based, whereas good journalism (like science) is evidence-based.

So, you mean even an organisation like the BBC will also lose objectivity if dealing with religion?

I'm not singling out Christianity, or even religion particularly. I'm saying that power corrupts, whether it be politicians or theocrats or transnational corporations.

Would you say the same for your father or your boss or your friend?

I think the western world is becoming more and more secular. Most of the northern European nations aren't even nominally Christian anymore.

Would you say that it is a failure of Christianity? And is that creating a spiritual vacuum which Islam is filling?

But we know he was neither dead nor in captivity.

No, we do not know. That is what we are told. And we have no means of knowing what is really the truth.

He wasn't killed until seven years later.

Once again, that is what we were told to believe. Although the manner his alleged body was disposed-off leaves behind obvious and natural suspicions.

Sorry, I don't know what a bogey is.

A bogey is fake. A fabricated character or story.


(Unless it's somebody who does Humphrey Bogart impressions. I don't think Bin Laden was one of those, but I could be wrong. Smile)

Bin Laden was certainly not what it was said he was.

I've already given you a couple of reasons. Still waiting for reason #1 why I should believe that the Quran is from God. "Reasons" like "it's so beautiful!" or "because some imam said so" don't count.

Here are a few of its messages to think about_

1. The Quran Encourages People to Contemplate & Think For Themselves

2� The Quran Discourages Blindly Following Ancestral Ways and Religious Preachers

3� The Quran Promotes Pluralism & Acknowledges There Being Multiple Paths to God

4�The Quran Champions Freedom of Conscience.

5� The Quran Asks Muslims to Be Social Activists

6� The Quran Considers Belief as a Means to an End, and Not an End in Itself

Most of your responses are non sequiturs to your original comment, as far as I can figure out.

Which was?

The point I was making is that from my point of view the Quran was manufactured by Muhammad and promoted by others in order to manipulate people into submission -- ostensibly to Allah, but in reality to those who claim to speak for Him or have special knowledge of Him. And lest I be misunderstood, I am not saying they do so maliciously or even intentionally. There is plenty of sincere belief, wilful ignorance, and a small measure of pious fraud involved.

The Quran could not have been 'manufactured by a human being. If Muhammad PBUH had written it, he would have eulogised himself. He would have written about his family and his own affairs. And the book would have been inconsistent. There are scientific data in the book which Muhammad PBUH did not know because he was not literate. There are prophecies in it that have come true. so, none of what you think is true.

Excellent! We've made some progress from a couple of weeks ago. Wink

The progress is only because I have established, hopefully, that no religion preaches evil. Also because I am not dogmatic, nor rigid. Because I know Jesus PBUH would not have approved of Hitler, Mussolini and Truman. Nor the Popes who ordered the Crusades or the Inquisitions.

Edited by The Saint - 03 June 2015 at 9:14am

Sure.

But I see that you do not look-up to anyone. That according to your manifesto, there is no life after this life. That the purpose of life ceases the moment a Humanist dies?

Not losing objectivity so much as lacking care in selecting and verifying sources. No hard news reporter would simply repeat a quote from a contemporary politician without confirming it first. But religious people are not in the habit of seeking confirmation. They accept things on faith.

But we are not talking about religious people? We are talking about seasoned and professional people who do not get swayed regardless of the content of their findings.

I would say that Christianity itself is a failure, if its purpose is to create an ethical society. But IMHO Islam is worse.

Why do you say that? Can you cite reasons for saying that?

Are you talking about Bin Laden or Muhammad? Wink

Of course, I am talking about Bin Laden.

Certainly? I thought you just said we have no means of knowing the truth. Confused

Actually, there are certain signs and pointers about individuals which point to him as being a certain kind of a person. And then all of a sudden the press starts painting him/her with a different kind of a brush. Therefore, such news is taken with reservations.

This happened in the case of Bin Laden as well. Because Bin Laden was once a darling of those very govts and media who later demonised him. Suspicion, therefore, is natural.

Not very long ago they were hailed as Holy Mujahideen because they were fighting for the West against arch enemy the Soviet Union. Suddenly, they become evil terrorists. One is forced to think what was going on.

Umm, but he did eulogize himself. ("There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day..." (33:21)

He is that and more. Ask two billion Muslims who emulate him. Can you name another man who is as conscientiously emulated as he is.

You must read and learn about his personal life. He was so humble and modest.

For forty years prior to the revelation, the Prophet Muhammad was indisputably known to be of sound morals. Amongst his tribe he was known as �As-Sadeeq Al-Ameen,� meaning the honest and trustworthy one. The fact that he was given this name can mean one of two things:

Either his honesty and trustworthy nature surpassed all others, or,
At the time, it was rare to find someone who was honest and trustworthy; therefore his nature was unique and treasured as such.

It was well known to his detractors that Muhammad, who was raised among them, never learned how to read or write from the time of his birth.

History supports him_

First, several occasions presented themselves where he could have fabricated revelation. For example, after the first revelation came, people awaited to hear more, but the Prophet did not receive anything new for months. The Meccans began making fun of him, �His Lord has abandoned him!� This continued until the 93rd chapter, Ad-Doha, was revealed. The Prophet could have compiled something and presented it as the latest revelation to end the mockery, but he did not.

Also, at one point during his prophethood, some of the hypocrites accused his beloved wife Aisha of being unchaste. The Prophet could have easily fabricated something to free her of blame, but he waited for many excruciating days, all spent in pain, mockery, and anguish, until revelation came from God freeing her from the accusation.

Second, there is internal evidence within the Quran that Muhammad was not its author. Several verses criticized him, and were on occasion strongly worded. How can an imposter prophet blame himself when it may run him into the danger of losing the respect, perhaps following, of his followers? Here are some examples:

"O Prophet! Why do you prohibit [yourself from> what God has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And God is Forgiving and Merciful." (Quran 66:1)

"�while you concealed within yourself that which God is to disclose and you feared the people, while God has more right that you fear Him.." (Quran 33:43)

"It is not for the Prophet and those who have believed to ask forgiveness for the polytheists, even if they were relatives, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of Hellfire." (Quran 9:113)

"But as for he who came to you striving [for knowledge> while he fears [God>, from him you are distracted. No! Indeed, they [these verses> are a reminder." (Quran 80:8-11)

If he were to hide anything, he would have hid these verses, but he recited them faithfully.

"And he [Muhammad> is not a withholder of [knowledge of> the unseen. And it [the Quran> is not the word of a devil, expelled [from the heavens>. So where are you going? It is nothing but a reminder to the worlds." (Quran 81:24-27)

The Prophet is cautioned, perhaps warned, in the following verses:

"Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad>, the Book in truth so you may judge between the people by that which God has shown you. And do not be an advocate for the deceitful. And seek forgiveness of God. Indeed, God is ever Forgiving and Merciful. And do not argue on behalf of those who deceive themselves. Indeed, God loves not the one who is a habitually sinful deceiver. They conceal [their evil intentions and deeds> from the people, but they cannot conceal [them> from God, and He is with them [in His knowledge> when they spend the night in such as He does not accept of speech. And God ever is encompassing of what they do,. Here you are � those who argue on their behalf in [this> worldly life � but who will argue with God for them on the Day of Resurrection, or who will [then> be their representative? And whoever does a wrong or wrongs himself but then seeks forgiveness of God will find God Forgiving and Merciful. And whoever earns [i.e., commits> a sin only earns it against himself. And God is ever Knowing and Wise. But whoever earns an offense or a sin and then blames it on an innocent [person> has taken upon himself slander and manifest sin. And if it was not for the favor of God upon you, [O Muhammad>, and His mercy, a group of them would have determined to mislead you. But they do not mislead except themselves, and they will not harm you at all. And God has revealed to you the Book and wisdom and has taught you that which you did not know. And ever has the favor of God upon you been great." (Quran 4:105-113)

There is plenty of stuff about himself, his wives, and his affairs (pun intended Wink).

In Islam we uphold the institution of marriage as sacred. So, no live-in relationships, no affairs and no or minimum adultery.

The Quran is loaded with inconsistencies and scientific inaccuracies. I've already pointed out a few, and you can find many more documented in great detail on numerous Web sites (if you bothered to look for them, which you won't).

Let me ask you name just one alleged inaccuracy in the Quran.

And his so-called "prophecies" are mere generalities that never provide hard information in advance, and can only be "interpreted" by twisting their meaning after the fact.

How about his prediction about Rome. Was that a generality, too?

The triumph of the Byzantines over the Persians

1. The Byzantine and Persian Empires were the super-powers of the time. It was during the years when the few believers were severely persecuted in Makka that the Persians utterly defeated the Byzantines. They had sweeping victories, and conquered Aleppo, Antioch, and the chief Syrian provinces, including Damascus. Jerusalem fell to their arms in 614-615. The Christians were massacred and their churches burnt. The Persian flood of conquest went on to Egypt, and reached as far as Tripoli in North Africa. Another Persian army ravaged Asia Minor and reached right up to the gates of Constantinople. The Makkan pagans rejoiced greatly, and redoubled their taunts and persecution against the Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, whose Message was a renewal of the Message of Jesus preached in Palestine. The following Qur�anic verses, which were revealed just at that time, gave certain tidings of a very near victory of the Romans over the Perisans:

The Romans have been defeated in a land close by, but they, after their defeat, will be victorious, within nine years. God�s is the command in the former case and in the latter, and on that day believers will rejoice, with the help of God. He helps to victory whom He wills. He is the All-Mighty, the All-Compassionate. (al-Rum, 30.1-5)

No one at that time could make such a prediction. But the Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, conveyed these Divine Revelations to his followers. They confirmed him without hesitation and Abu Bakr bet the Makkan polytheists that the Romans would be victorious in nine years. Heraclius, the Roman Emperor attacked the Persians initially by sea in 622 (the year of the Hijra), and after decisive battles and three successive campaigns, put them to rout in a few years. His victories happened at the same time as the believers won the victory of Badr over the Makkan polytheists. Thus the verses above contained two predictions, both of which came true in nine years.