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AnnieTwo View Drop Down
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Points: 281 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AnnieTwo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2006 at 5:36am
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

Annie,

From you:"The Law and the Prophets are still on the books so to speak (bold emphasis mine, not that of Servetus).  Jesus fulfilled a lot of the Law and the Prophets.  Notice Jesus said: I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

If you think he fulfilled the Law, then do you consider the Law on Foods is still strictly in place? And no one should get away with his misinterpreted speech "It is not important what goes in the mouth but it is important what comes out of the mouth" which his beloveds think allows them to devour everything?

BMZ



Read the story Peter tells in Acts 10 & 11.  I believe it is two-fold.  Gentiles were no longer "unclean" but were to be accepted just as Jews are.  Everything that God made is good.  God declared animals etc. good in the book of Genesis.

Christians may obey the food laws if they wish and many do.  The most important thing is that we have faith in God and in God's Messiah Jesus and follow him.

Obeying the food laws will not get you anywhere if your heart is defiled with filth.

Annie
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BMZ View Drop Down
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Points: 1852 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2006 at 6:20am

Annie,

From you: "Read the story Peter tells in Acts 10 & 11.  I believe it is two-fold.  Gentiles were no longer "unclean" but were to be accepted just as Jews are.  Everything that God made is good.  God declared animals etc. good in the book of Genesis."

I regret to write that the above statement is NOT acceptable for it defies the very strong statement what God made in Deutronomy 14:8 which clearly states,"The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You ARE NOT to eat their meat or touch their carcasses." Do you still consider the pig  under the category of good animals? That is what the Lord God said and that should stand. 

It is thus clearly commanded that any animal, that does not chew the cud, is forbidden (haraam). Please note that Jesus never gave a statement like this:"All animals are lawful to you from now on."

From you: "Christians may obey the food laws if they wish and many do.  The most important thing is that we have faith in God and in God's Messiah Jesus and follow him."

I beg to differ. There is no such thing as "may obey" in God's rule. People have to obey and there is no choice!

From you: "Obeying the food laws will not get you anywhere if your heart is defiled with filth."

Yes, but then you have two filths instead of one and that will seal the chances of getting anywhere.

BMZ 
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AnnieTwo View Drop Down
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BMZ,

You must go back further than Deuteronomy.  Take a look at Genesis 9:2-4:  And your fear and your dread shall be upon all the beasts of the earth and upon all the fowl of the heaven; upon everything that creeps upon the ground and upon all the fish of the sea, [for] they have been given into your hand[s].  3. Every moving thing that lives shall be yours to eat; like the green vegetation, I have given you everything. 

4. But, flesh with its soul, its blood, you shall not eat.

The food laws that came later were for the Jews and the Jews only.  

Noah was allowed to eat any kind of animal, any kind of bird and any kind of fish. This is the way Jews have traditionally understood this instruction to Noah.

Jewish rabbis said that gentiles were righteous if they observed laws that went back to their ancestor Noah -- and avoiding unclean meat was not part of the requirements. The rabbis listed seven rules that go back to the time of Noah:

  1. not to worship idols, 
  2. not to blaspheme God's name, 
  3. to establish courts of justice, 
  4. not to kill, 
  5. not to commit adultery, 
  6. not to steal and 
  7. not to eat meat that had been cut from a living animal

The Talmud also mentions that the Israelite patriarchs were allowed to eat unclean meat (Hullin 7:6). These sections of the Talmud acknowledge that Genesis does not forbid the eating of unclean meat. The prohibition was one of the laws that were added 430 years after Abraham, as part of the law of Moses, given to Israelites only.

Notice that food laws are not included in the list.

Annie



Edited by AnnieTwo
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AbRah2006 View Drop Down
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Points: 354 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AbRah2006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2006 at 7:44am

Freedifreeholder's statement: you think our glorious Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ is like your prophet? - hes not.  you think we worship the same God? - we dont

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

 

Fredi's statement: you think our glorious Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ is like your prophet? - hes not. 

My response: Jesus  is a messenger of God and so is the prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) (Salallahu �alayhi wa salam, meaning: May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was All�h's  great Prophet and Messenger   like Jesus, the Son of Mary.  The Prophet's mission, however, is universal. Allah (S.W.T.)    (Subhanahu wa ta�ala, meaning: the Exalted, Most Glorious) tells mankind that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) is no more than a Messenger (Qur�an 3: 144), the unlettered Prophet who believes in Him and His Words (Qur�an 7: 158).  He is the Seal of the Prophets and the true universal Messenger of All�h to the whole mankind (Qur�an 33: 40).

Jesus is a prophet of God: (1) Throughout the Qur�aan, Jesus is identified fundamentally as a Messenger of God. In Chapter as-Saff (61):6, God quotes Jesus as follows: �And [remember] when Jesus, son of Mary, said: �O Children of Israel, I am the messenger of Allaah sent to you, confirming the Torah [which came] before me.�

                                        (2)There are many verses in the New Testament supporting the messengership / prophethood of Jesus. The following are only a few: In Matthew 21:11, the people of his time are recorded as referring to Jesus as a prophet: �And the crowds said, �This is the prophet Jesus of Nazareth of Galilee.� � 

Fredi's statement: you think we worship the same God? - we dont

My response: Yes we worship different God.

As a Muslim I worship Allah Who says that none is equal to Him but you Fredi worship a man who is called Jesus. I worship Allah who is the All-Mighty but you worship Jesus who says in John 5:30: �I can of mine own self do nothing...�.

I worship Allah Who is  the Knower of the unseen and the visible but Mark�s Gospel reveals that Jesus had limitations in his knowledge.  In Mark 13:32, Jesus declared that he himself does not know when the last day will occur, but the Father alone knows that (see also Matthew 24:36).

I worship Allah Who is  the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. You worship Jesus who was born by a woman.

I worship Allah Who is the Greatest but you worship Jesus who says in John 14:28,  �The Father is greater than I.�

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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AnnieTwo View Drop Down
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AbRah2006,

Originally posted by AbRah2006 AbRah2006 wrote:


I worship Allah Who is the Greatest but you worship Jesus who says in John 14:28,  �The Father is greater than I.� 


The Father is greater in authority but not in substance.  The Father and his Word and his Spirit are all of the same substance.  He is only One God.

I worship the God who Jesus revealed.  The one who allows me to be his daughter.

Don't forget that the Father gave Jesus authority over heaven and earth, therefore, making Messiah Jesus our Lord and Master.

Originally posted by </span></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><span style=font-weight: normal; =bold>AbRah2006 AbRah2006 wrote:

I worship Allah Who is  the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. You worship Jesus who was born by a woman.


Don't forget God's part in Jesus conception.

Annie
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AbRah2006 View Drop Down
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Points: 354 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AbRah2006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2006 at 8:49am
Originally posted by AnnieTwo AnnieTwo wrote:

AbRah2006,

Originally posted by AbRah2006 AbRah2006 wrote:


My statement: I worship Allah Who is the Greatest but you worship Jesus who says in John 14:28,  �The Father is greater than I.� 


AnnieTwo's statement: The Father is greater in authority but not in substance.  The Father and his Word and his Spirit are all of the same substance.  He is only One God.

I worship the God who Jesus revealed.  The one who allows me to be his daughter.

Don't forget that the Father gave Jesus authority over heaven and earth, therefore, making Messiah Jesus our Lord and Master.

My response: In John 14:28, Jesus was saying: �The Father is greater than I.� By stating that the �Father� is greater than himself, Jesus distinguishes himself from God.  Question: Why do you worship Jesus who says that God is greater than him?

[QUOTE=AbRah2006]

My statement: I worship Allah Who is  the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. You worship Jesus who was born by a woman.


AnnieTwo's statement: Don't forget God's part in Jesus conception.

My response: Therefore Allah is the Creator but Jesus was created so Jesus is not God! Question: Why do you worship a creation of God?





Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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fredifreeloader View Drop Down
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Points: 456 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2006 at 9:36am
herjihad - why did you increase the size of my font when you quoted me?  wer you trying to make out i was shouting?
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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BMZ View Drop Down
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Points: 1852 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2006 at 10:20am

Fredi,

You came back so fast? Looks like you dumped the poor fellow and came back running to Islamicity.

From you: "herjihad - why did you increase the size of my font when you quoted me?  were you trying to make out i was shouting?"

  

herjihad thought your were whispering, so she just increased the volume a li'l bit to made it audible.

Good Night

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