IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Interfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Jesus’ new commandment  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Jesus� new commandment
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2122232425 28>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Ron Webb View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Male atheist
Joined: 30 January 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2008 at 6:43pm

Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

with due respect, pride is show off of an achievement or a quality one may have or achieve. God does not show off, nor He needs to. To whom would He do that? There is none equal or above Him. So for that reason I believe, God does not have 'pride' as one of His attributes, at least not in Islam.

To whom would He "show off"?  To us, of course!  Why else do you think He created us, if not to have others to share the wonders of His Creation?  Even as an atheist, I am duly impressed.  If God really does exist, He certainly has a right to be proud!

Quote Similarly, 'angry' is not same as 'disappointed' as you tried to equate the two. And again, we in Islam don't believe that God get disappointed, that may be a Biblical term used for God, but certainly not in Islam.

No, I didn't equate the two, but disappointment is surely a lesser emotion than anger.  If God can be angry at us, why not disappointed?

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

Could you post some verses from The Quran that state God is angry?

I downloaded Yusuf Ali's translation as a single file (http://www.qurandownload.com/english-quran(alhilali-khan).pdf) and searched for the word "wrath".  After a couple of dozen hits I stopped counting.  Just a few: 2:61, 3:112, 4:93, 5:63, 6:147, 7:71, 8:16. (Seems like every sura, doesn't it?  Allah gets angry a lot!)
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
Back to Top
Ron Webb View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Male atheist
Joined: 30 January 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2008 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by Gulliver Gulliver wrote:

It might be 'out of context'. But on first reading to me - it makes Muhammad sound like a sociopath too, like Moses in that post you had up elsewhere. Maybe they really were all inspired of Satan and Ron is correct.

Ouch!  I need to correct that in a hurry.  I certainly didn't mean to say that they were "all inspired of Satan".  What I believe I said was, how do you know that any particular prophet wasn't?  And how would the (alleged) prophets themselves know?  We can only judge by measuring the content of each message against our own intellect -- there is no other criterion. 
 
(Just for the record, I don't think any of them were inspired by God, or by Satan.  I think they were ordinary men, well-intentioned but mistaken in various ways.  But let's not discuss this here -- I just wanted to set the record straight.)
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
Back to Top
BMZ View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1852 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2008 at 10:50pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

"John 18
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm
 
Clearly Jesus was not against fighting, he said himself that his servants would be fighting if necessary, it's just that it wasn't necessary in this instance. "
 
How do you get from this that Jesus was not against fighting ? He is saying that his kingdom is not of this world. And if he did not disprove violence, why wasn't it necessary in this instance ? Your interpretation would seem to contradict the corrpupt story in the garden of gethsemane, where he tells Peter, "he who lives by the sword shall died by it." ?
 
I would say if he did disapprove of violence he wouldn't have stated that IF his kingdom were not of this world they would fight to keep him from the Jews. If he were against fighting, why say such a thing at all, why even bring it up?
 
Didn't Jesus also tell his followers to sell their garments to buy swords? Another contradiction?
 
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
 
 
"One thing I have noticed, and maybe I am wrong. I don't get a very real impression that Muslims here have made a real and systematic study of the Christian scitpures/theology ? Same for Christians and Islam. Forgive me if I am wrong. I have not read much myself. But with the little I have read, that is the impression I have been getting. It's more bout 'us and them' from both sides."
 
Ah, but I was a Christian for 36 years. I have the Bible on my bookcase right next to my Quran. And I've actually read them.
 
 
Good post.
 
Jesus was in a real difficult situation. He knew he was in trouble and just before he spoke about procurement of swords, he had told very clearly that Peter was going to disown him to save his own life. The message is very clear and Peter did abandon and disowned him to save his own neck. That was not ordained.
 
Quote 35Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
      "Nothing," they answered.

 36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

 38The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
      "That is enough," he replied.

We can see very clearly that the disciples were hesitant to get swords and note the answer given, "See, Lord, here are two swords." This answer clearly shows that they were reluctant to fight for him.
 
And Jesus was sarcastic in his reply,"That is enough", as he knew they were not willing to fight for him or to defend him.
 
Jesus' position was very weak as he had no great following. The multitudes, who munched on free fish and bread, did not stand up for him.  "Nothing was really being fulfilled. In simple words, Jesus knew that his end was near.
 
Immediately after the above, we can see Jesus praying and asking the father to relieve him.
 
Also notice: "49When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" 50And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear."
 
This shows as if all carried their swords, when in fact there were only two.
Instead of seeing them defending him there and then, we see them asking,"Lord, should we strike with our swords?" LOL
 
By the way, just for everyone's information, the word Sword cannot be found in Qur'aan. Wink
 
Salaams
BMZ
 
 


Edited by BMZ - 28 October 2008 at 11:09pm
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
Back to Top
Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Female
Joined: 29 March 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1930 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2008 at 2:22am
"I am only doing what I have seen, see you do Shasta. I follow your lead.
It's how you 'teach'.
 
All I see you at this last week, is hole picking the OT and NT to 'prove' your notion that God and Jesus may, or may not be the same 'cause of 'their' 'attitudes' to violence. It NEVER occurs to you people that what you say at times can be as offensive to others as your own claims on what others may or may not believe.  I did not set out to see 'what a bad boy Muhammad' was, is. Like I said, I am following your lead. You need to review your teaching strategies."
 
Gulliver,
 
This is the question I originally asked in response to your post about Moses:
"That Moses was a sociopath and should burn in hell."
 
If he was then he wasn't the only one. The Old Testament is full of mass murder: Joshua, Samson, etc...
 
I have asked this question here many times and have yet to receive an answer: if Jesus is God, how do Christians reconcile the Prince of Peace with the God of the Old and New Testament. Let's not forget that in the NT God is still going to condemn an unknown number of souls to the hell fire.
 
You were the one who originally brought up the "Moses as a sociopath" theory. I didn't write the OT or the NT, not did I first broach the subject. My question was on reconciling the God of the OT with Jesus, the Prince of Peace, as God incarnate. Since the title of this thread is "Jesus' new commandment" I felt that it was a legitimate question.
 
You are also the first one who engaged in "tit for tat" as you say, because in your next post you brought up The Prophet Mohammed chopping off the heads of Jews. What this has to do with my original question I know not. But it seems that I am following your lead, not the other way 'round. 
 
What I do find amusing is that the "you people" you refer to are Muslims on an Islamic Forum. If Christians wish to come here and start topics such as this one, then they should be prepared for questions that might offend. If I went to a Christian forum and started a topic proselytizing Islam, then I should not be offended if someone asks the difficult questions.
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
Back to Top
Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Female
Joined: 29 March 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1930 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2008 at 2:56am
"By the way, just for everyone's information, the word Sword cannot be found in Qur'aan. Wink"
 
Neither can the words "holy war"....
 
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
Back to Top
BMZ View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1852 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2008 at 9:03am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

"By the way, just for everyone's information, the word Sword cannot be found in Qur'aan. Wink"
 
Neither can the words "holy war"....
 
 
And there are two more words which cannot be found in Qur'aan at all:
 
Hate and Taqaiyya. Smile
 
Salaams
BMZ
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
Back to Top
BMZ View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1852 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2008 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by Gulliver Gulliver wrote:

I am only doing what I have seen, see you do Shasta. I follow your lead.
It's how you 'teach'.
 
 
All I see you at this last week, is hole picking the OT and NT to 'prove' your notion that God and Jesus may, or may not be the same 'cause of 'their' 'attitudes' to violence. It NEVER occurs to you people that what you say at times can be as offensive to others as your own claims on what others may or may not believe.  I did not set out to see 'what a bad boy Muhammad' was, is. Like I said, I am following your lead. You need to review your teaching strategies.
 
I do want to learn. But I wish to learn from people who know their subject, and to tell the truth Shasta, the more I once again try and get back to 'religion' - the more I am becoming convinced it's the blind leading the blind.
 
I do try and read the Qu'ran, and like the Bible, it is not all plain sailing without history and context. When I met my Muslim friend and saw how his faith life impacted his entire life, I was interested to learn more. I did look online, and the very first thing I saw about Muhammad was the claim he was a paedophile. I asked my friend about this. His response, "why do people always have to look at the bad bits !" He knew me by that stage and knew it was not me doing that - it's what others did. So I went online with him and we did look at various claims against his religion that he did not necessarily have the answers to, at that time. I was ONLY concerned with looking at the good of his religion, to the truth of it, something that would enrich the already strong faith he had. He never quite got to trying to do the same for me. It was always, "I believe in and respect Jesus as a prophet," but could not quote anything Jesus was supposed to have actually said. I am not looking to see the 'bad' in anything - religion included, or Muhammad. I am just following the lead here. Tit for tat. I can play that game really well. I was raised in a society where that's what 'religion' seemed to be so much about - tit for tat - eye for an eye - bullet in the head for a bullet in the head. My knowledge of God is better than yours. I have the truth and you don't.
 
We all need to stand back and take a good look in the mirror it seems to me - and I include myself in that :-)
 
God bless
 
 
I will address only one point, which I have emboldened within your post, Gulliver.
 
You should know very well that a paedophile never stops at one and most paedophiles in the modern world are kept tagged and are kept in detention. There is no cure.
 
You should also look at a people's culture and history. No culture allowed a paedophile to continue with his activities.
 
Prophet was married to Khadija, his first wife when he was 25 and she was 40. He was 54 when Khadija passed away. After that he married widows, other women, young and old. 
 
Paedophiles DO NOT do that. You should thus see clearly that the accusation is false.
 
His companions and followers would have left him if he were a paedophile and his tribe would have finished him off. The 7th Century was more modern than the 1st Century. LOL
 
Cheers
BMZ 


Edited by BMZ - 29 October 2008 at 10:38pm
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
Back to Top
believer View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 08 January 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1397 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote believer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 October 2008 at 7:51am

There was a fatwah from Khomeini that allowed thighing of young girls still weaning.

Has that fatwah been canceled?  Can you cancel fatwahs?
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2122232425 28>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.