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fredifreeloader 
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 Posted: 27 May 2006 at 10:32am |
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bmz - it was my auntie. she was old and had suffered from altzheimers for several years. it was only an hour or so on the train from here. the only time i seem to see my relatives is at funerals, and we keep saying we must meet up when its not a funeral, but never do. strange. thank you for your kind thoughts.
Edited by fredifreeloader
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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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fredifreeloader
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Posted: 27 May 2006 at 10:58am |
 Mishmish wrote:
I believe in the Shariah law as it was practiced at the time of the Prophet Mohammed. could you perhaps tell me where i can find this shariah law of which you approve? the existing 4 schools of the law are clearly not acceptable to you, so if you are proposing a 5th, then i am very interested in finding out all about it. please note that this is a very vital issue, of interest to everyone. muslims want to take over the world, in the sense that they want islam to dominate everywhere. certainly american muslims, if mr ibrahim hooper is anything to go by, want to see islam as the sole religion of the usa. in a recent poll, 40% of british muslims said they wanted the introduction of shariah law for the areas they lived in (the all congregate in areas of cities). now which sharia law would they have been talking about? i have asked several muslims about this, but they just clam up, and the grand claim they frequently make about islam "covering all areas of life and society" is starting to look very weak indeed in the absence of any firm statement as to what constitutes correct shariah law. you know the thought occurred to me that perhaps nobody actually knows......If men have interpreted something into Shariah Law that is against the teachings of the Quran, then it is incorrect. An example would be how in many societies today Shariah Law is interpreted different for women who commit adultery than for men who commit adultery. The Quran prescribes the same punishment for both, but that is not always what happens today. Usually the woman is held accountable. This is in direct contradiction to the Laws of God as stated in the Quran.
The interpretation of men is always subject to error and contradictions. Just look at the four Gospels of the life of Jesus.well if youd like to discuss your concept of error and contradiction in the gospels then you may start another thread
If there is a Hadith that is in contradiction with the Quran or the teachings of the Quran, then the Hadith can not be accepted over the Word of God. Once again, the Hadith are writings, by men, of the sayings and practices of the Prophet. The Quran is the Word of God.well if you are "quran only" then how will your country be governed in an islamc context?
If you don't understand this it's just because you don't really want to. now please dont go huffy on me mish....ive learned an awful lot about islam since entering these forums
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Edited by fredifreeloader
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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Mishmish
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Posted: 27 May 2006 at 2:04pm |
AnnieTwo wrote:
BMZ,
You must go back further than Deuteronomy. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->Take a look at Genesis 9:2-4: <!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->And your fear and your dread shall be upon all the beasts of the earth and upon all the fowl of the heaven; upon everything that creeps upon the ground and upon all the fish of the sea, [for] they have been given into your hand[s]. <!--[endif]--> 3. Every moving thing that lives shall be yours to eat; like the green vegetation, I have given you everything.<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
4. But, flesh with its soul, its blood, you shall not eat.
The food laws that came later were for the Jews and the Jews only. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Noah was allowed to eat any kind of animal, any kind of bird and any kind of fish. This is the way Jews have traditionally understood this instruction to Noah.
Jewish rabbis said that gentiles were righteous if they observed laws that went back to their ancestor Noah -- and avoiding unclean meat was not part of the requirements. The rabbis listed seven rules that go back to the time of Noah:
- not to worship idols,
- not to blaspheme God's name,
- to establish courts of justice,
- not to kill,
- not to commit adultery,
- not to steal and
- not to eat meat that had been cut from a living animal
The Talmud also mentions that the Israelite patriarchs were allowed to eat unclean meat (Hullin 7:6). These sections of the Talmud acknowledge that Genesis does not forbid the eating of unclean meat. The prohibition was one of the laws that were added 430 years after Abraham, as part of the law of Moses, given to Israelites only.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> Notice that food laws are not included in the list.
Annie
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So, God allowed the eating of any type of animal in Genesis, then disallowed the eating of pigs in Deuteronomy, which is a later book: an abrogation of the earlier Law. But according to Rabbis, this Law of God does not affect Gentiles, so Christians are free to eat that which God commanded not be eaten.
What of Exodus 21? Did Jesus come to fulfill those Laws of God, or should we believe Matthew?
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Mishmish
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Posted: 27 May 2006 at 2:23pm |
AnnieTwo wrote:
Paul did not write Hebrews. Barnabas did.
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To be factual, no one knows who wrote Hebrews. Most King James Versionists and most evangelicals believe it was Paul. That is why Hebrews shows up in the The Epistle of Paul. There is no eveidence that Barnabas wrote Hebrews.
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Mishmish
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Posted: 27 May 2006 at 2:28pm |
fredifreeloader wrote:
Mishmish wrote:
I believe in the Shariah law as it was practiced at the time of the Prophet Mohammed. could you perhaps tell me where i can find this shariah law of which you approve? the existing 4 schools of the law are clearly not acceptable to you, so if you are proposing a 5th, then i am very interested in finding out all about it. please note that this is a very vital issue, of interest to everyone. muslims want to take over the world, in the sense that they want islam to dominate everywhere. certainly american muslims, if mr ibrahim hooper is anything to go by, want to see islam as the sole religion of the usa. in a recent poll, 40% of british muslims said they wanted the introduction of shariah law for the areas they lived in (the all congregate in areas of cities). now which sharia law would they have been talking about? i have asked several muslims about this, but they just clam up, and the grand claim they frequently make about islam "covering all areas of life and society" is starting to look very weak indeed in the absence of any firm statement as to what constitutes correct shariah law. you know the thought occurred to me that perhaps nobody actually knows......If men have interpreted something into Shariah Law that is against the teachings of the Quran, then it is incorrect. An example would be how in many societies today Shariah Law is interpreted different for women who commit adultery than for men who commit adultery. The Quran prescribes the same punishment for both, but that is not always what happens today. Usually the woman is held accountable. This is in direct contradiction to the Laws of God as stated in the Quran.
The interpretation of men is always subject to error and contradictions. Just look at the four Gospels of the life of Jesus.well if youd like to discuss your concept of error and contradiction in the gospels then you may start another thread
If there is a Hadith that is in contradiction with the Quran or the teachings of the Quran, then the Hadith can not be accepted over the Word of God. Once again, the Hadith are writings, by men, of the sayings and practices of the Prophet. The Quran is the Word of God.well if you are "quran only" then how will your country be governed in an islamc context?
If you don't understand this it's just because you don't really want to. now please dont go huffy on me mish....ive learned an awful lot about islam since entering these forums
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Fred: I'm finished with you on this thread. I have gone over most of this material with you earlier in the thread. You know what I have written about the Hadith. I am not "Quran only" nor have I ever stated I was. You keep ranting about Muslims wanting to take over the world and force everyone to live under Shariah Law, to which there is no answer because it is such a ridiculous claim.
This is getting nowhere, and there's no point in repeating everything again.
I don't mean to get huffy, but it's just going in circles.
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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AnnieTwo
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Posted: 27 May 2006 at 3:16pm |
Mishmish wrote:
AnnieTwo wrote:
Paul did not write Hebrews. Barnabas did.
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To be factual, no one knows who wrote Hebrews. Most King James
Versionists and most evangelicals believe it was Paul. That is why
Hebrews shows up in the The Epistle of Paul. There is no eveidence that
Barnabas wrote Hebrews. |
You are correct that the author is uncertain. Originally the book
was called "The Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews." But it is widely
agreed now that Paul could not have written this book. Paul
usually identifies himself in his writings. Notice that the
author does not identify himself. The writing styles are
different. Tertullian quotes from this book and attributes it to
Barnabas.
Annie
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fredifreeloader
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Posted: 28 May 2006 at 1:21am |
Mishmish wrote:
[QUOTE=fredifreeloader][QUOTE=Mishmish]
Fred: I'm finished with you on this thread. so you are clamming up just like every muslim ive spoken to on the subjectI have gone over most of this material with you earlier in the thread. You know what I have written about the Hadith. I am not "Quran only" nor have I ever stated I was.if youre not "quran only" then what else do you include? You keep ranting about Muslims wanting to take over the world and force everyone to live under Shariah Law, to which there is no answer because it is such a ridiculous claim.no i have not ranted, and i made clear exactly what i meant by "taking over the world". nor is it a ridiculous claim. it is the objective of islam, why else would we have all these dawa people?
This is getting nowhere, and there's no point in repeating everything again.but i am not asking you to repeat yourself. you have made your doubts about the hadith and your disdain of shariah law perfectly clear. i am asking you to state clearly in detail what life will be like (that is to say, what the laws will be)in a muslim majority country being run according to islamic principles. what will muslims and non-muslims be allowed or not allowed to do? if i point to an existing muslim majority country, like malaysia, which was the starting point for this thread, you will say "oh but thats not the real islam" so what is?
I don't mean to get huffy, but it's just going in circles.in that case just stop going round in circles, and talk properly about it. we need to know. france has 6 million muslims at the moment, the vast bulk of them being immigrants. the total population is about 60 million, so it is a sizeable minority already. i read that by the end of this century, if current demographic trends continue, france will be 50% muslim. think about it. my country will not be far behind them. this will not happen in my lifetime, but for people like myself, concerned about the future of humanity, it is something to consider. only a blind idiot would accept islam without total clarity on this issue. we need to know. so get talking, otherwise we will conclude that you dont know, or youre trying to hide something |
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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Mishmish
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Joined: 01 November 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1694
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Posted: 28 May 2006 at 3:40am |
fredifreeloader wrote:
Mishmish wrote:
[QUOTE=fredifreeloader][QUOTE=Mishmish]
Fred: I'm finished with you on this thread. so you are clamming up just like every muslim ive spoken to on the subjectI have gone over most of this material with you earlier in the thread. You know what I have written about the Hadith. I am not "Quran only" nor have I ever stated I was.if youre not "quran only" then what else do you include? You keep ranting about Muslims wanting to take over the world and force everyone to live under Shariah Law, to which there is no answer because it is such a ridiculous claim.no i have not ranted, and i made clear exactly what i meant by "taking over the world". nor is it a ridiculous claim. it is the objective of islam, why else would we have all these dawa people?
This is getting nowhere, and there's no point in repeating everything again.but i am not asking you to repeat yourself. you have made your doubts about the hadith and your disdain of shariah law perfectly clear. i am asking you to state clearly in detail what life will be like (that is to say, what the laws will be)in a muslim majority country being run according to islamic principles. what will muslims and non-muslims be allowed or not allowed to do? if i point to an existing muslim majority country, like malaysia, which was the starting point for this thread, you will say "oh but thats not the real islam" so what is?
I don't mean to get huffy, but it's just going in circles.in that case just stop going round in circles, and talk properly about it. we need to know. france has 6 million muslims at the moment, the vast bulk of them being immigrants. the total population is about 60 million, so it is a sizeable minority already. i read that by the end of this century, if current demographic trends continue, france will be 50% muslim. think about it. my country will not be far behind them. this will not happen in my lifetime, but for people like myself, concerned about the future of humanity, it is something to consider. only a blind idiot would accept islam without total clarity on this issue. we need to know. so get talking, otherwise we will conclude that you dont know, or youre trying to hide something
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It doesn't matter. The Prophet has made it clear that there will not be an Islamic government until right before the End of Times. Shariah will not run rampant across the world, and Muslims will not "compel" people to accept Islam or else. It just isn't meant to happen.
I have no doubts about Hadith nor do I disdain Shariah Law. I am not sure where you are getting this from. If a Hadith contradicts the Quran, then the Quran is always correct. Third or fourth time saying this. The Shariah Law is the fairest law on the earth. However, Shariah Law as practiced now is not always fair or Islamic. It is not the Law that is at fault, but the men who enforce it.
Why does the thought of Islam growing making you concerned about humanity? Look, let's be frank here, the Christians and Christian majority governments have been the "super powers" of the earth for the last couple of centuries. During this time, they have invented weapons of mass destruction, had 2 world wars and numerous smaller wars, numerous genocides in which millions have died, the ozone layer is destroyed, the polar ice caps are melting, the world is covered with polution, millions of people live in poverty and hunger, women and children are abused and treated as second class citizens around the world, crime is running rampant, and the elected leaders are liars and hypocrits. Seriously, how much more damage could a few more Muslims do?
Islam is the perfect religion, but humans are not perfect. If you are truly interested in learning about Islam, then study Islam, not the faults of those who practice it.
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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