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AnnieTwo 
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 Posted: 28 May 2006 at 9:46am |
 Mishmish wrote:
AnnieTwo wrote:
BMZ,
You must go back further than Deuteronomy. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->Take a look at Genesis 9:2-4: <!--[endif]--> <!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]-->And your fear and your dread shall be upon all
the beasts of the earth and upon all the fowl of the heaven; upon
everything that creeps upon the ground and upon all the fish of the
sea, [for] they have been given into your
hand[s]. <!--[endif]--> 3. Every moving thing that lives shall be yours to eat; like the green vegetation, I have given you everything.<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
4. But, flesh with its soul, its blood, you shall not eat.
The food laws that came later were for the Jews and the Jews only. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Noah was allowed to eat any kind of animal, any kind of bird and any
kind of fish. This is the way Jews have traditionally understood this
instruction to Noah.
Jewish rabbis said that gentiles were righteous if they observed
laws that went back to their ancestor Noah -- and avoiding unclean meat
was not part of the requirements. The rabbis listed seven rules that go
back to the time of Noah:
- not to worship idols,
- not to blaspheme God's name,
- to establish courts of justice,
- not to kill,
- not to commit adultery,
- not to steal and
- not to eat meat that had been cut from a living animal
The Talmud also mentions that the Israelite patriarchs were allowed to eat unclean meat (Hullin
7:6). These sections of the Talmud acknowledge that Genesis does not
forbid the eating of unclean meat. The prohibition was one of the laws
that were added 430 years after Abraham, as part of the law of Moses,
given to Israelites only.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> Notice that food laws are not included in the list.
Annie
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So, God allowed the eating of any type of animal in Genesis, then
disallowed the eating of pigs in Deuteronomy, which is a later book: an
abrogation of the earlier Law. But according to Rabbis, this Law of God
does not affect Gentiles, so Christians are free to eat that which God
commanded not be eaten.
What of Exodus 21? Did Jesus come to fulfill those Laws of God, or should we believe Matthew? |
<>Food laws are for the Jews only. It is not an abrogation of the earlier law since the earlier law
applies to the Gentiles as I said. The
Jews who haven't accepted Messiah Jesus are still under the food laws.
Christians read the Old Testament through the vision of Jesus. Jesus reinterprets (not cancels or
abrogates) the Torah and the traditions of the elders. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus uses this
formula or a variation of it: "You disciples have heard from long ago . .
. but I say to you." In Greek this last clause "but I say to
you" is emphatic. It is contrasted with the teaching of Jesus’
predecessors. He restricts their meaning even further, using six examples.
(1) Jesus cites the sixth commandment of the Ten, which prohibits murder
(Exodus 20:13), but then he tightens it up by going straight to the heart. If
anyone has anger in his heart towards a brother, then he will be subject to
judgment. He then counsels reconciliation (Matt. 5:21-26).
(2) Jesus refers to the seventh commandment, which prohibits adultery
(Exodus 20:14), but then he tightens it up with the problem of the heart. If
anyone entertains lust, he has already committed adultery (Matt. 5:27-30).
(3) Divorces were easy to get in first-century Israel, and this put the
woman at risk if she did not have her father’s household to which she could
return. It certainly put a strain on her paternal family. Jesus tightens up
this easy divorce procedure, which favored the man (Matt. 5:31-32).
(4) Jesus references verses in the Torah about swearing oaths (Leviticus
19:12; Numbers 30:2; Deuteronomy 23:21), but he says that his followers should
not swear at all because they have integrity in their hearts (Matt. 5:33-37).
(5) Jesus refers to the lex talionis or law of retaliation (Exodus 21:24),
but he says it is better not to seek revenge.
The citizen of the kingdom must be ready to forgive and go the extra
mile.
(6) Finally, he cites a command and a tradition that says a kingdom citizen
should love his neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), but hate his enemy (a tradition or
popular belief). However, Jesus says a kingdom citizen should also love his
enemy and pray for his persecutor.
<>
Exodus 21 does not apply to Christians. Remember we look at the Old Testament through the vision of Jesus as noted above. I don't think even the Jews follow the rules
in Exodus 21.
Annie
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AbRah2006
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Posted: 28 May 2006 at 10:33am |
AnnieTwo claim that Exodus 21 does not apply to Christians. Remember we look at the Old Testament through the vision of Jesus as noted above. I don't think even the Jews follow the rules in Exodus 21.
------------------------------------------------------------ ------
My response:
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn�t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
Therefore Exodus 21 does apply to Christians!
***EDITED***
(1)Eating pork is forbidden (Deuteronomy 14:8). Hmm, I�ve never met a Christian who DIDN�T enjoy bacon and eggs. Christians are among the biggest consumers of pork!
(2)The making of images is forbidden Ex 20:4 but
I find that there are so many images in the churches!
Edited by Mishmish
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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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AnnieTwo
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Posted: 28 May 2006 at 11:19am |
AbRah2006 wrote:
AnnieTwo claim that Exodus 21 does not apply to Christians. Remember we look at the Old Testament through the vision of Jesus as noted above. I don't think even the Jews follow the rules in Exodus 21.
------------------------------------------------------------ ------
My response:
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn�t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
Therefore Exodus 21 does apply to Christians!
***EDITED***
(1)Eating pork is forbidden (Deuteronomy 14:8). Hmm, I�ve never met a Christian who DIDN�T enjoy bacon and eggs. Christians are among the biggest consumers of pork!
(2)The making of images is forbidden Ex 20:4 but
I find that there are so many images in the churches!
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Try real hard to find out what Jesus meant when he said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
Edited by Mishmish
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14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4
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fredifreeloader
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Posted: 29 May 2006 at 2:34am |
Mishmish wrote:
[QUOTE=fredifreeloader][QUOTE=Mishmish][QUOTE=fredifreeloader][QUOTE=Mishmish]
It doesn't matter. but it does matter, very muchThe Prophet has made it clear that there will not be an Islamic government until right before the End of Times. so muhammads government was not islamic? where did he make it clear that islamic government was not for now?Shariah will not run rampant across the world, and Muslims will not "compel" people to accept Islam or else. It just isn't meant to happen.i havent said it would "run rampant" across the world. more like "creep slowly and inexorably", unless something is done. its already happening, the governments are terrified to say anything bad about muhammad, and criticism of muhammad is absolutely prohibited under shariah
I have no doubts about Hadith nor do I disdain Shariah Law. I am not sure where you are getting this from. If a Hadith contradicts the Quran, then the Quran is always correct. well if a hadith contradicts the quran, you must clearly have doubts about it. how the lies are allowed to remain on the same page as what you consider to be the truth, i dont knowThird or fourth time saying this. The Shariah Law is the fairest law on the earth. well prove it. give me shariah law.However, Shariah Law as practiced now is not always fair or Islamic. It is not the Law that is at fault, but the men who enforce it. but i have been quoting the law itself, not examples of human enforcement, with respect to discrimination against non-muslims in court, and the reality of the jizya tax, and the motivations for it
Why does the thought of Islam growing making you concerned about humanity? well surely, if you are in disagreement with so much of whats going on in the islamic world, it must be a concern to you as wellLook, let's be frank here, the Christians and Christian majority governments have been the "super powers" of the earth for the last couple of centuries. well the united states is an overtly secular country, where christian children are not even allowed to pray in school. the third reich was satanic (only word i can think for it) - the soviet union was atheist, and persecuted the believers. the peoples republic of china does the same. japan is certainly not christianDuring this time, they have invented weapons of mass destruction, had 2 world wars and numerous smaller wars, numerous genocides (not a good subject for a muslim to be raising)in which millions have died, the ozone layer is destroyed, the polar ice caps are melting, the world is covered with polution, millions of people live in poverty and hunger, women and children are abused and treated as second class citizens around the world, crime is running rampant, and the elected leaders are liars and hypocrits. Seriously, how much more damage could a few more Muslims do? well if we get to the stage that there are enough muslims in a country to demand shariah law, and get their way, a lot
Islam is the perfect religion,(!!!!!!!) but humans are not perfect. well we already know humans are not perfect, but to say islam is perfect requires substantial substantiationIf you are truly interested in learning about Islam, then study Islam, not the faults of those who practice it.well, again, show me where i can read your perfect version of shariah law |
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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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AbRah2006
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Posted: 29 May 2006 at 4:33am |
Former Christian Priests and Missionaries who have Embraced Islam: Abdullah al-Faruq Formerly Kenneth L. Jenkins, minister and elder of the Pentecostal Church says:
1) "Not a single one could explain how Jesus was supposedly God, and how, at the same time, he was supposedly the Father, Son and Holy Ghost wrapped up into one and yet was not a part of the trinity. Several preachers finally had to concede that they did not understand it but that we were simply required to believe it."
2)"Cases of adultery and fornication went unpunished. Some Christian preachers were hooked on drugs and had destroyed their lives and the lives of their families. Leaders of some churches were found to be homosexuals. There were pastors even guilty of committing adultery with the young daughters of other church members. All of this coupled with a failure to receive answers to what I thought were valid questions was enough to make me seek a change. That change came when I accepted a job in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia."
3) "I was then given a video cassette of a debate between Shaykh Ahmed Deedat and Reverend Jimmy Swaggart. After seeing the debate I immediately became a Muslim." (To view this debate click here � requires RealPlayer). It is an interesting debate!
4) "I was taken to the office of Shaykh 'Abdullah bin 'Abdul-'Azeez bin Baz to officially declare my acceptance of Islam."
5) "It is my prayer that Allah will forgive us all of our ignorance and guide us to the path leading to Paradise. All praise is due to Allah. May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon His last messenger, Prophet Muhammad, his family, companions, and those following true guidance."
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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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fredifreeloader
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Posted: 29 May 2006 at 4:59am |
AbRah2006 wrote:
fredifreeloader wrote:
AbRah2006 wrote:
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Let me quote my statement: Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. ....What does this verse mean?Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. | |
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My response:
I quote fredifreeloader 's words: you have yet to produce a single verse from the holy scriptures of God which instructs christians to kill anyone.abrah i am breathless with anticipation
I will show you fredifreeloader some of the verses of the so-called 'holy' scriptures of Christians which instructs christians to kill. How holy is the Bible when it has blood on it.
You Christians claim falsely that Jesus is God and he is the Word of God so the Old Testament and New Testament are Jesus' words according to your 'logic'. After all Jesus says that he comes to fulfill the teachings of Moses.
1)fredifreeloader ...See what had happened to Sodom and Gommorah and compare it with 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. ......God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven.this is the judgement of God himself - not an instruction for christians to kill anyone
And now see how it affects Mark 6:11 .....Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. ....What does this verse mean?Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. no this refers to the judgement of God on judgement day
What do you Christians promise to the cities that reject Christianity? Destruction of the cities that are worse than Sodom and Gomorrah!we do not promise any such thing - warning people about the coming judgement of God is not the same as destroying people
2)Lets us consider this Biblical verse Deutronomy why? what has this got to do with christians?
| 2:33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
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| 2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
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| 2:35 Only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, and the spoil of the cities which we took.
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2:36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us:
At God's instructions, the Israelites "utterly destroyed the men, women, and the little ones" leaving "none to remain." so the Bible asks you to kill and you kill the innocents in the name of God!no it does not. the commands were righteous, and were given to the israelites. the mosaic covenant, the law, was between God and israel
3)See what the NT says about Jesus: Jesus comes to detroy peace and families!
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Matthew 10:34-36:
I came not to send peace, but a sword. ... A man's foes shall be they of his own household."
Jesus came not to bring peace but to destroy families by making family members hate each other.no the hatred does not come from the Lord, it comes from those who hate him and his sanctified people. the fact that the Lord has come into the world, and has saved his people to himself, means that many of the others, living as they are in the sphere of satan, will hate and hate. satan will always oppose God, right up to his final doom
Is Jesus peaceful?was muhammad? how many people did he have killed? does anybody know? ---in any event, in these verses, the Lord is warning his people of trouble ahead. he is telling them that, because they love him, people will hate them- john 15: 18,19 - even members of their own families - mark 13: 12 - a prophecy that has been fulfilled down through the ages. he is not telling christians to hate or kill anyone - luke 6: 35
4) Now see what the NT says about Jesus:
Matthew:
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15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
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15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
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15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
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15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. |
Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it.well of course the Lord was perfectly correct (as always) to criticise the pharisees for enforcing their own traditions and ignoring the weightier matters of the law. no the Lord did not come to kill, he came to save - see john 8: 2-11 - the woman taken in adultery was in danger of being stoned to death, in accordance with the law, but the Lord forgave her, and the divine authority of his Person prevented the others from killing her.
earlier you quoted matthew 5: 17, i think it was, where the Lord says that he did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfil it. the next verse says nothing will pass from the law, "till all be fulfilled" - the word fulfil here is pleroo in greek, it means to fill, fulfil, complete, which is precisely what the Lord did in relation to the law. he lived it perfectly in his own life. he fulfilled it on the cross, where all the types of the tabernacle and the levitical system of sacrifice were fulfilled. bringing a thing to an end in this way is not to destroy it, but to complete it and honour it. the Lord also bore the curse of the law - galatians 3: 13,14 - making us free from it, "that the blessing of abraham might come on the gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith"
the law of God has not changed, but our relation to it has, as God is now dealing with us in grace through the Lord Jesus Christ. look at the teaching of the Lord in luke 16: 16 - "the law and the prophets were until john (the baptist): since that time the kingdom of God is preached......" - this is preparing the way for the new covenant, which would come in at the cross, and which was promised in jeremiah 31: 31
In Islam Jesus is a great prophet of Allah for he is a righteous man!but i am not in islam, and neither was the Lord Jesus
How holy is the Bible when it slanders the prophets of Allah(God). For example: (Genesis 19:30-38)
Lot and his daughters camp out in a cave for a while. The daughters get their "just and righteous" father drunk, have sexual intercourse with him, and each conceives and bears a son (wouldn't you know it!). Just another wholesome family values Bible story. .....Comment: Lot was a prophet of God and he hated immorality so it was impossible for him and his daughters to commit incest etc. God had saved the righteous people! |
So now the Bible has become a slanderer. Is God a slanderer? Answer: God is not a slanderer and God will never slander His own prophets! So who did slander in the Bible? Answer: The keepers of the Bible!the holy word tells the truth about lot. lot is not said to be a prophet in the holy word. we do not engage in psycophantic posturing before men
Hey fredifreeloader why do you condone the brutality of the NT and OT?so you equate the righteous judgment of God with human brutality? - that is blasphemy
Fredi's statement: you think our glorious Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ is like your prophet? - hes not.
My response: Jesus is a messenger of God and so is the prophet Muhammad.
Fredi's statement: you think we worship the same God? - we dont
My response: Yes we worship different God.
As a Muslim I worship Allah Who says that none is equal to Him but you Fredi worship a man who is called Jesus. I worship Allah who is the All-Mighty but you worship Jesus who says in John 5:30: �I can of mine own self do nothing...�.this is another wonderful proof of the Lords deity. we can all do things of ourselves, for instance when we disobey God, and sin. but he was incapable of doing anything outside the holy will of his Father. this is no mere man. we have to try to obey God, we dont have to try to disobey him. Christ is one with his Father, he is God
I worship Allah Who is the Knower of the unseen and the visible but Mark�s Gospel reveals that Jesus had limitations in his knowledge. In Mark 13:32, Jesus declared that he himself does not know when the last day will occur, but the Father alone knows that (see also Matthew 24:36).
I worship Allah Who is the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. You worship Jesus who was born by a woman.
I worship Allah Who is the Greatest but you worship Jesus who says in John 14:28, �The Father is greater than I.� the last verses you quoted refer to the Servant character of Christ, to the work he did, not to his Person, his essence. Christ is the Son of God, but also Gods Perfect Servant. he subjected himself - philippians 2: 5-8 - what a glorious proof of divine love!
NOW YOU ARE RAISING TOO MANY ISSUES THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD,ABRAH. if you wish to discuss these things take them elsewhere. why not help mishmish out. she is running out of ideas, going round in circles
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Edited by fredifreeloader
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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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amah
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Posted: 29 May 2006 at 5:23am |
fredifreeloader wrote:
it is the objective of islam, why else would we have all these dawa people?
Why
do we have these Christian missionaries? what are they doing and why???
france has 6 million muslims at the moment, the vast bulk of them being immigrants. the total population is about 60 million, so it is a sizeable minority already. i read that by the end of this century, if current demographic trends continue, france will be 50% muslim. think about it. my country will not be far behind them. this will not happen in my lifetime, but for people like myself, concerned about the future of humanity, it is something to consider.
I find it funny that you are so paranoid
about muslims and islam! how does islam harm you? and why do so many people accept islam if it was so imperfect and faulty like you claim. everyone knows islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. why????
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Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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AbRah2006
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Posted: 29 May 2006 at 5:24am |
Hey fredifreeloader
I am not convinced with your answers because your answers are too weak to be accepted by me! I am going to refute your answers soon.
You are afraid to face me that is why you say "NOW YOU ARE RAISING TOO MANY ISSUES THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD,ABRAH. if you wish to discuss these things take them elsewhere. why not help mishmish out. she is running out of ideas, going round in circles"
Mishimish is a wise woman and I like to read her statements. It is you Fredifreeloader who are going in circles by repeatings your wild claims against Islam again and again eventhough the Muslims have refuted them again and again! Can't your read your own statements? Can't your swallow your own wild claims?
You are just a ship that loses its rudder....You move in a circle!
Edited by AbRah2006
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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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