The Original Sin

Is there any dispute that Islam arose in a tribal society? I thought one of the great achievements attributed to Muhammad was his ability to unite the Arabic tribes. I don't know how much of a factor it remains today, but according to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, tribalism is still evident in Somalia, where she grew up.

No, there is no dispute. But there is no dispute either on the point that most societies in those times were of a tribal nature.

But today's modernist mind-set deems it regressive if a community lives/d in a tribal society. Yes, it is true that Muhammad PBUH did unite a lot many people and it is possible that Somalia may still be a tribal society. But obviously, you are not very impressed by tribal societies. Are you not?

Yes, He's doing such a good job that more than ten percent of us don't have enough to eat.

That is because of rank bad management of the food chain. It cannot be attributed to Him or the Muslims.

But still Muslims believe that large families are a good thing. Ermm

Maybe, they do. But I am of the opinion that large families are not the cause behind food shortages.

You should go here to learn a few facts: https://www.wfp.org/hunger/causes and here to stay abreast: http://www.businessinsider.in/An-unstoppable-problem-is-making-it-nearly-impossible-for-the-world-to-produce-enough-food/articleshow/48337545.cms

al-Qaradawi does not deny that the man is given authority over the woman in Islam, so how he can describe that as "equality" is beyond me.

Quoting a man at random does not prove anything. Get your evidence from the Quran and Hadith?

Of course not. If you agreed, you would have to change your opinion, right? Wink

If you post appropriately, you may actually convince me.

No, actually none of this surprises me, and I'm not sure why you thought it would.

I thought it would because you pretend as if all is hunky dory in your backyard.


Violence against women is a problem in all societies.

But you all like to believe and project that only Muslim societies or only Muslim women suffer from violence.

My point is that women in Muslim societies are not necessarily safer, and are often at greater risk. As your source says (and this is particularly true in Muslim countries):
"Rates of sexual violence are difficult to establish because in many societies it remains an issue of deep shame for women and often their families. Statistics on rape from police records, for example, are notoriously unreliable because of significant underreporting."[

You can only support this position in spite of the stats posted by me? I can see you are running away from those facts and figures and trying to hide behind the oft- alleged possibility that rape and violence records in Muslim countries are not maintained neither are such crimes reported.

You're really that naive?

Indulge me. Your 'brilliance' foxes me. But I am trying.

From Wikipedia:
"Women's right to initiate divorce is very limited compared with that of men. According to shari'a law, there are two reasons a wife may be granted divorce: when she can prove that the husband did not have intercourse with her for more than two months or if the husband does not provide her with what she needs for living such as food and shelter. While men can divorce their spouses easily, women face legal and financial obstacles. For example, in many cases the woman must repay her dowry and marriage expenses. In general she also has to forfeit child custody, if the child is older than seven years. Even if she is granted child custody, she has to give it to the father when the child reaches the age of seven."

Let me get back to you on this. As I do not consider Wikipedia an authority on Islamic matters. And I do not expect you to have the courage or the ability to go to Islamic sources and get the true position.

Why? Again, what business is it of yours?

Genuine humanitarian concern.

So why is it that these "blessings of God Almighty" seem to be disproportionately bestowed on secular and especially non-Muslim nations?

Because you have neither any interest nor belief in a life after this. But Muslims have. And they are content with the justice of God Almighty. They know what He does not give them here they will get in the hereafter. Hope you can comprehend what was said here.

The Saint wrote: No, there is no dispute. But there is no dispute either on the point that most societies in those times were of a tribal nature. But today's modernist mind-set deems it regressive if a community lives/d in a tribal society. Yes, it is true that Muhammad PBUH did unite a lot many people and it is possible that Somalia may still be a tribal society. But obviously, you are not very impressed by tribal societies. Are you not?

Tribal societies within a global village are a recipe for disaster.

That is because of rank bad management of the food chain. It cannot be attributed to Him or the Muslims.

Who manages the food chain in Muslim countries?

Maybe, they do. But I am of the opinion that large families are not the cause behind food shortages. You should go here to learn a few facts: https://www.wfp.org/hunger/causes and here to stay abreast: http://www.businessinsider.in/An-unstoppable-problem-is-making-it-nearly-impossible-for-the-world-to-produce-enough-food/articleshow/48337545.cms

It's interesting that your two sources contradict each other.  The WFP insists that we have enough food, while the Business Insider article says it is "nearly impossible for the world to produce enough food".  I expect that the WFP has political reasons not to mention family size as an issue, but it should be obvious that a poor family would have less trouble feeding one or two children instead of six or eight.

al-Qaradawi does not deny that the man is given authority over the woman in Islam, so how he can describe that as "equality" is beyond me. Quoting a man at random does not prove anything. Get your evidence from the Quran and Hadith?

 I agree, quoting a man at random doesn't prove anything -- but al-Qaradawi was your source, not mine!  But you wouldn't know that, because you never check your sources.

I thought it would because you pretend as if all is hunky dory in your backyard.

I've acknowledged several times that western society has plenty of problems.  What I'm saying is that western societies have provided many more benefits to humankind than Muslim ones, and are more successful on the whole.

But you all like to believe and project that only Muslim societies or only Muslim women suffer from violence.

Of course not.  I've only said that violence against and oppression of women is much worse in Muslim societies.

You can only support this position in spite of the stats posted by me? I can see you are running away from those facts and figures and trying to hide behind the oft- alleged possibility that rape and violence records in Muslim countries are not maintained neither are such crimes reported.

The stats you report are not comparative.  They only show that violence is a problem in western societies, which we agree.  They don't and can't show whether it is more or less than in Muslim societes.

Underreporting of sexual and domestic violence is more than just an "alleged possibility".  It is a fact, in all societies that I know of, including western ones.  But it is especially true where women are legally under the authority of their husbands, where they are required to cover their bodies so bruises don't show, where they often cannot even be on the street (let alone go to a police station) without a male "guardian", where accusations of rape can easily backfire into charges of promiscuity, etc.

Indulge me. Your 'brilliance' foxes me. But I am trying.

Indeed, you're very trying.

Let me get back to you on this. As I do not consider Wikipedia an authority on Islamic matters. And I do not expect you to have the courage or the ability to go to Islamic sources and get the true position.

I don't consider Wikipedia to be an authority on anything either; but if you look carefully at any (properly written) Wikipedia article, you'll see that every point that could be considered at all controversial has a footnote that references the source of the information.  In the passage I quoted, the sources are [27] "Divorced from Justice: Women�s Unequal Access to Divorce in Egypt", by Human Rights Watch, and [28] "The Hard Way Out: Divorce by Khula", by Suad Hamada, a journalist in Bahrain, writing for the publication Women's International Perspective.  I encourage you to check those sources, and their sources whenever possible as well, not just in this case but whenever you read an article on the Internet.

Genuine humanitarian concern.

You would hang them out of humanitarian concern??  Are homosexuals not human in your view?

So why is it that these "blessings of God Almighty" seem to be disproportionately bestowed on secular and especially non-Muslim nations? Because you have neither any interest nor belief in a life after this. But Muslims have.

You're saying that Allah treats believers worse than non-Muslims because Muslims believe in an afterlife?  That doesn't make any sense.  Why would Allah reward non-believers more than believers, in this life or the next? 

The Saint wrote: Ron Webb wrote: Tribal societies within a global village are a recipe for disaster. How and why?

For a number of reasons, but mainly because the modern world is a "global village".  It is no longer feasible for tribes to remain geographically, socially or economically separate.  We have to accept pluralism and allow our neighbours to believe and behave differently from us.

Who manages the food chain in Muslim countries? I am sure it is the same as they do in the western countries.

Exactly.  And yet when I suggested that the earth already had more than enough people on it, and that therefore contraception and family planning might be a good thing, you responded that "God Almighty is the Ultimate Provider" and any difficulties were the fault of "those who are bent upon destroying the natural resources of this planet" (presumably non-Muslims).

So if God is the Ultimate Provider, then He's not doing a great job of it.  On the other hand, if it's up to us humans to manage our resources, then limiting population would be a good start.  I'm not saying that overpopulation is the only cause of hunger, nor that family planning is a panacea; but for instance, if we had a few million square miles of uninhabited fertile land to give to the Syrian refugees, then that would go a long way toward solving one of the world's pressing problems at the moment.

The Saint wrote: No, it does not. Your ignorance shines through with such remarks. You may want to refresh your understanding. Go to: http://islamicstudies.islammessage.com/Fatwa.aspx?fid=20 al-Qaradawi does not deny that the man is given authority over the woman in Islam, so how he can describe that as "equality" is beyond me. Quoting a man at random does not prove anything. Get your evidence from the Quran and Hadith? I agree, quoting a man at random doesn't prove anything -- but al-Qaradawi was your source, not mine! But you wouldn't know that, because you never check your sources. In which matter did I quote him? However, as I have often told you and you have equally often forgotten it, the Quran and Hadith are paramount and will override any scholar.

Your link (in red above) is to an opinion written by al-Qaradawi.  I already provided a link to the original source of the text to show that he is the author.

So why give me a link to "refresh my understanding" of an issue, if it's just some random guy on the Internet and doesn't prove anything?

Today, what western societies know and possess was made possible by Muslims scholars, researchers and inventors. Therefore, the latter's contributions are undeniable.

They are also ancient history.  The world changed since then, and Islam has failed to keep pace.

Even that is a dastardly lie.

It is based on peer-reviewed research from multiple sources compiled by the World Health Organization in their report, Global and Regional Estimates of Violence against Women, which I cited earlier.

And I am surprised you should say this after I posted all that data that demonstrates how women in the west are exploited so ruthlessly. After I submitted that the US is the rape capital of the world. Not only that, the top nine raping nations are in Europe.

The "data" you offered was from Wonderslist.com, a self-described "infotainment Blog".  It doesn't cite its sources at all, but it's pretty obvious that it is a compilation of reported rapes from crime statistics.  As I pointed out, almost no woman would report being raped to authorities in a Muslim country, because it is usually the woman herself who ends up being punished.

I am sure I have quoted sources that carry stats about Muslim countries also

You're sure of a lot of things that turn out not to be true.

Tell me, how many Muslim countries have you been to? How credible is your knowledge? Are you not making up stuff on the basis of what you have read in your press? How honest are you?

My credibility is beside the point.  I'm just a guy typing stuff on the Internet, same as you.  Neither of us should be believed.

The question should be, how credible is the World Health Organization?  And if you don't trust them, how credible are the dozens of sources they reference?  On both counts I would say they are light-years ahead of your "infotainment blog".

Here's the position as per Shariah: "The only difference between a divorce initiated by a husband and a wife in Islam is that if the husband intends to divorce his wife, he has to announce his declaration of divorce, whereas the wife who seeks divorce either asks her husband to declare a divorce upon her, or if he refuses her request, she would have to initiate a divorce proceedings against her husband in a Shariah Court. But without an iota of a doubt, both parties in the marriage have a right to initiate a divorce proceeding, if they indeed wish to do so." http://www.islamhelpline.net/answer/7308

And if her husband doesn't allow her to travel to the Shariah Court?

But hold on, what do men and women do in christian/secular societies? There is no provision of a divorce in christianity?

I don't know (and don't care) about Christianity, but in Canada divorce is relatively easy.  I think most divorce is by mutual consent (it's easier and cheaper than contesting it); but in cases of physical or emotional abuse or neglect, a woman can get a divorce without her husband's consent.

It is based on peer-reviewed research from multiple sources compiled by the World Health Organization in their report, Global and Regional Estimates of Violence against Women, which I cited earlier.

Maybe. I haven't had time to check. I will, though. But why do you deliberately overlook the accusations I have made against the morality of the western women and the attitude of western men against women. Considering Sweden is the rape capital of Europe and the US is the rape capital of the world.

Do you know why women are punished? Because they are not supposed to roam around freely as western women do.

My credibility is beside the point. I'm just a guy typing stuff on the Internet, same as you. Neither of us should be believed.

No, we are not the same. You are not honest but I am.

The question should be, how credible is the World Health Organization? And if you don't trust them, how credible are the dozens of sources they reference? On both counts I would say they are light-years ahead of your "infotainment blog".

WHO is a reasonably dependent source. But I still do not agree with their output. Because I have read at other sources as well same or similar facts as on wonderlist.

And if her husband doesn't allow her to travel to the Shariah Court?


Shariah Court will take care of that.

I don't know (and don't care) about Christianity, but in Canada divorce is relatively easy. I think most divorce is by mutual consent (it's easier and cheaper than contesting it); but in cases of physical or emotional abuse or neglect, a woman can get a divorce without her husband's consent.

Since when have you parted ways with Christianity? And why? Anyway, have you heard of Khula?