no compulsion - the latest......

fredifreeloader wrote: youll have a long wait pal.  now do the decent thing and address the issue of compulsion or get out

As I had said earlier....I request you to answer my questions before we discuss the issue of compulsion. It is an irony that it is you who like to question the Muslims including me and we have refuted your wild claims using facts  but you avoid my questions! They are very simple questions! Now I request you to answer my questions below: Please answer YES or NO

(1) Is Jesus the Word of God?

(2) Are the Old Testament and New Testament the Word of God?

These are very simple questions and ordinary people can understand it very well....I am waiting for your answers.

fredifreeloader wrote: ok, lets summarize a little.  we have established that shariah law is discriminatory.  the word of a muslim is to be taken over the word of an "infidel" in court, a christian rapist is to be killed immediately, but no muslim, rapist or otherwise, is to be killed on account of an "infidel", and the jizya tax, according to both shariah law and the quran is for purposes of subjugation, indeed shariah law states categorically that it is a punishment and humiliation for those who dare not to accept islam.  also we have seen, that under shariah law, christians and jews are not allowed to build new places of worship.  the purpose of this, i would suggest, is quite simply to stunt the growth of these religions, and ensure the dominance of islam.  which is why of course, in places like egypt and indonesia, new church buildings have to be registered, and the believers often have to wait years and years for this, and while they wait they are not allowed to meet in any other buildings.  so church meetings (the church is a body of people, not a building) are so often broken up by police, or by fanatical muslims, with the police standing by watching.  some christians recently tried to hold services in the street, only to be kicked into ditches by muslim fanatics.  this is compulsion, end of story.  and then they brag about being the "fastest growing religion in the world".  people who deny the discriminatory nature of shariah law should provide evidence to the contrary

My response:

Islamic Judicial System

"O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealing and let not the hatred of others to you, make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to Piety: and fear Allah for Allah is well acquainted with all that you do" [ Quran Al-Maida: 8].

In the eyes of the judiciary there can be no bias against the muslims and non-Muslims . The judge (Qadi) is concerned with evidence permitted by Shari'ah and nothing else. There are many examples of cases where the non-Muslim was ruled in favour over a Muslim.

During the rule of Umar bin al-Khattab (ra), certain Muslims had stolen a piece of land belonging to a Jew and then constructed a mosque upon it. This clearly violated the rights of the Jew who was a dhimmi. Umar (ra) ordered the demolition of the mosque and the restoration of the land to the Jew.

In another case, during the rule of Imam Ali (ra), a Jew stole a shield from the Khaleefah. Ali (ra) took the matter to court and brought his son as a witness. The judge ruled against Khaleefah and stated that a son cannot be a witness for a father in court. When the Jew witnessed such fairness, he voluntarily confessed that he stole the shield and embraced Islam.

With regard to the Dhimmis (Non-Muslims living under Muslim protection), Islam ordered that they must be treated justly. It gave them rights and imposed duties on them. It gave them security in the Muslim world, and imposed blood-money and expiation for an act of killing committed against anyone among them. Allah says:

"If he belonged to a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance, blood-money shall be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed" (Quran 4:92)

Furthermore, in conformity with the saying of the Prophet (peace be on him), Islam prohibits the slaying of a Dhimmi living in the Muslim world.

"Whoever kills a person under the contract of protection shall never smell the scent of Paradise" (Ibn Majah)

Moreover, Islam does not forbid its followers from being charitable towards those who do not fight them or expel them from their homes. Allah says in the Qur'an:

"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: For Allah loves those who are just" (Quran 60:8)

And:

"And let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do" (Quran 5:8)

In Islam there is absolutely no difference between men and women as far as their relationship to Allah is concerned, as both are promised the same reward for good conduct and the same punishment for evil conduct. The Qur'an says:

And for women are rights over men similar to those of men over women. (2:226)

The Qur'an, in addressing the believers, often uses the expression,'believing men and women' to emphasize the equality of men and women in regard to their respective duties, rights, virtues and merits. It says:

For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. (Quran 33:35)

The Qur'an admonishes those men who oppress or ill-treat women: O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)

Conclusion: (1)In the eyes of the Islamic judiciary there can be no bias against the Muslims and non-Muslims .

(2)Islam respects the religious freedom of non-Muslims: There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower
[Qur'an 2:256]

"Fred: There is more compulsion in Christianity than there ever was in Islam. This is a historical fact. Like I said, fix what is wrong with your own religion before trying to attack mine."

I am a living witness to testify that and please accept my testimony. The four guys up above are making my life miserable everyday, trying to compel me to accept the Lord!  I dread taking the lift up and down.

Fredifreeloader'

I wish to expose what is really happening in Muslim nations that you accuse them of persecuting non-Muslims. For example in Medan Indonesia I find that there two or more churches in every small village of Bataks. In fact the churches outnumber the mosques. That means Muslims tolerate Christians. There are many churches, temples etc in Muslim nations that prove Muslims tolerate non-Muslims.

 Non-Muslims are allowed to practise their beliefs and their rights in Muslim nations. They hold positions in government and non-government sectors. For example: Tariq Aziz, also Tareq Aziz (Arabic: ���� ����) (born 1936 in Tel Keppe, Iraq) was the Foreign Minister (1983�1991) and Deputy Prime Minister (1979�2003) of Iraq, and a close advisor of former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein for decades. Tariq Aziz is a Chaldean Catholic. Even Saddam Hussein who is despised by the West for defending the integrity of Iraq respects the rights of non-Muslims.

Note:Saddam Hussein is a victim of the US foreign policy: The US goverment said that Saddam Hussain was a good man when it used him as its proxy to fight against Iran. When Saddam realise that he is fooled by the US govt, he refuse to obey his former master so the US government labels him as a bloodthirsty terrorst.

 Non-Muslims are allowed to practise their way of life. if you go to any Muslim nations such as Malaysia you will find that non-Muslims practise their own way of life. They celebrate their own festivals.

In Indonesia, Muslims are the majority and the Christians are the minority. It is the Christians who attack and massacre the innocent Muslims who are the neighbours of the Christians for centuries but the media twist the news into a lie by saying that Muslims have massacred the Christians in Indonesia.

Here are some facts about what have happened in Indonesia:

1) Muslims from Pelauw who had been living in Ambon city for years became targets of Christian attacks.

 January 19: The Beginning: A Christian Ambonese public transport driver, Jacob Leuhery, otherwise known as Yopy is the cause of the Christian genocide of Muslims.Yopy was the driver of a van that was owned by a Bugis resident of Batu Merah Bawah. His conductor was also a Muslim from Batu Merah Bawah. Yopy had used the van for a charter or private rental, and the conductor, acting on behalf of the owner, asked Yopy for the money he had received. Yopy refused and threatened the conductor. Several Christian passengers then joined Yopyin assaulting the conductor, who ran to Batu Merah Bawah to get reinforcements from his friends. The two groups clashed, and religious and racial tensions erupted into violence.

January 19, Kampung Paradeys
According to an Ambonese Muslim we interviewed named Ikhwan, the Christian attack on his neighborhood, Kampung Paradeys, began around 11:00 p.m. The attackers came in groups, about twenty people to a group. They claimed their church, the Bethelem church, had been burned, but it wasn�t true. Then they went about trying to destroy houses with iron pipes and rocks, smashing everything. He was in his house when they came. About fifteen minutes later, the second attack came, then they went back. The third wave came about 11:30 p.m. They threw rocks but didn�t try to enter the houses. They went away again but came back around 1:30 a.m. Some of the mob wanted to break into the houses, but he heard someone shout, �Don�t go in yet!� Then he heard the banging on the electric pole. Three times meant �Come together� and banging many times very rapidly sent a different message, he wasn�t sure what. There was clearly a leader giving the signals.

At that stage, Ikhwan and his family ran out the back, leaving everything in the house. They heard cries of �Burn!� and �Kill them!� He said the Christians carried large pipes, knives, and machetes. They had red cloths on their heads and on their arms.

The mob came back around 3:30 a.m, then again two hours later. Ikhwan said the Christians went in each house, looting and stealing. He heard one of them say, �Don�t take it out on the streets or we�ll be accused of theft. Put it in the Bethlehem Church.� Ikhwan's house was only five meters from the church, and they took his television set there. They couldn�t burn his house because it was so close to the church.

January 19-20, Batu Gantung, Waringin
At about 3:30 p.m., the grandson of Haji Agil Azuz came running home and said there was trouble at the terminal, with people running and others chasing them. An hour later, another resident ran in and reported that Christians from Kudamati were joining forces with Christians from Mardika. At about 5:00 p.m., witnesses saw a truck with about fifty youths on board pull up in front of Haji Kembang�s house; all were carrying long knives. Their first action was to wreck five cars parked on the main road, smashing the windows and causing other damage. They then went on to wreck four houses in the southern part of the neighborhood with rocks and iron pipes.Then three houses in front of the Rehoboth Church received the same treatment, as did the building housing a computer training center owned by Haji Naya. Three vehicles nearby were torched

On the northern side of the neighborhood, some of the Christians were singing a song over and over as they moved from the secretariat of the Indonesian Christian Student Movement office toward the Rehoboth church where many of the attackers were gathering. The words, as noted by a Muslim, were �We will not retreat, we will not, we will not, we will not, We have won with the blood of Lord Jesus, We have won with His blood.�

At 10:00 a.m. on January 20, the Christians attacked again, this time using flaming arrows and molotov cocktails. The attackers appeared to come from several Christian villages in Nuaniwe subdistrict. In the course of this attack, the house of a Muslim named A. Gani was set on fire with a molotov cocktail, but he managed to put out the flames. The house of Ani Sangadji was attacked by three of her own Christian neighbors, Prima Kastanya, Yance Noya, and Hans Siahaya, while two other neighbors, also Christian, stood by and watched. Noke Latupeirissa, a resident of Batu Waringin, stood on the second floor of the Kastanya house and shot flaming arrows into the Muslim houses. The Muslims pleaded for help from the police who were standing in front of Jln. Dr. Sitanala, but they said they were assigned to that spot and could not move.

From the north, the attackers tried to set the houses of Sahadin, Huri, Mulyono, Jambulang, and La Gawaru on fire, but the owners managed to extinguish the flames. The Christians, according to this account, then emptied the houses of two Christian residents, Mama Nyora Maelissa and No Rehatta, and set those on fire. From there, the flames quickly spread to the rest of Batu Gantung, destroying about 120 homes. Fire trucks only arrived at 6:00 p.m., after the fires were almost out.

January 20, early morning
January 20 saw all the major markets in the city burned down by Christian forces.

By 6:30 a.m. Christian mobs had burned the Pelita shopping area, the Gambus market, the Mardika market, the Mardika fruit market, and the Cakar Bongkar food market. A large settlement of Butonese around the Gambus market was burned to the ground. The stalls in the burned markets were overwhelmingly Bugis-owned. One man told us that the only two stores in the Gambus market not burned were automobile spare parts stores and belonged to ethnic Chinese. The man said, �It was as though the Christians tried to protect the Chinese even as they destroyed everything else.� The al-Hilal Muslim elementary school and kindergarten were also burned, and there was selective burning of Muslim-owned property, such as a Padang restaurant and the Natrabu travel agency, along Ambon�s main streets.

Later in the morning, Christian mobs set fire to Pohon Pule, the housing complex on the coast where the Bugis traders who worked in the Mardika market lived.

January 20, Benteng Karang

Al-Fatah mosque in Ambon had been surrounded and burned, and many Muslims were massacred by the Christians.