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StephenC View Drop Down
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Joined: 16 September 2006
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Points: 264 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2006 at 1:11pm

Quote:
I suggest a new non-recycled temple.

 

"Your suggestion is probably too radical for this board.  Unless and until God instructs Abraham (with Ishmael) to build and consecrate another Kaaba, the one which is standing and which was purified of idolatry by Muhammad during his lifetime will probably remain the focus of attention and the direction of the qibla for quite some time.

 

Best regards,

 

Serv"

Exactly how did Muhammad purify the Kaaba?  Was it again purified after each of it's many rebuildings?

And what indications do we have that the point on which the Kaaba stands was anything other than a pagan temple?
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Points: 264 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2006 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by Dzul Dzul wrote:

Assallamualaikum warahmatullahiwabarakahtu...

How can you convince someone that do not believe in the Quran? Mr Stephen do not believe that our Quran is authentic... Na'uzubillah!!! He is truely blasphemous. Why can't he see, even after many blasphemous remarks that he has thrown to us, all the answers that he gotten was delivered with restrain and controlled manner... At least acknowledge that and move on... There is no need to further disturb us. We are not even forcing our views on him. If Stephen do not believe in Islam, so be it... Just live peacefully and have a great life however he defines it...It is very clear to all of us through all the explainations from my brothers and sisters in Islam about the matter.

Mr Stephen will always come out with something pretending that he is seeking the truth? But he can never accept the truth. But that's ok... Move on Mr Stephen, you cannot find anything here anymore... Do not be angry with us that we have accepted Islam. We are not angry that you have not embrace any faith. Well whatever it is you are going to grave alone with whatever you disbelieve.

Many Muslim brothers and sisters had attempt to answer him and without fail he will come up with something utterly ridiculous to make us angry, then he would say that we are intolerant and having a violent disposition. Doesn't Stephen aware that by being a Non-Muslim he is a guest in this all Muslim forum. How would he feel if we go to his whatever faith forum he operates and post the same nonsense that he is posting here?

Obviously he rejected everything about religion. He is using this to pacify his state of mind which I see as on the fringe of insanity.

If he could be reasoned with, enlightened Muslims like Sister Fatimah would have answered him. But I think she had seen that he is beyond help from any of us. 

Please stop all this nonsense Mr Stephen... We are not angry if you do not accept Islam... It is really ok. But firing us up by posting irresponsibly here shows how intolerant you are with other religion. That's why I quoted the surah "Al-Kafirun" to you earlier... 

Peace Mr Stephen...

I have stated that if anyone can provide proof (other than Muhammad said so) that the "Voice" did exist and that it was from the Angel Gabriel, then I would admit that Islam is the one and only true religion of the God of Abraham.  No one has provided anything except "blind faith" remarks.

Is it too much to ask and too painful to Islam, to ask basic questions about it?  Am I to just take the word of the every person that claims to be a prophet?

I am not angry with anyone about their religion.  I admit that I am not convinced enough in my beliefs that I would try to impose them on others.  God gave me the ability to reason and to think for myself.  I am utilizing the talents that God gave me.

Does it offend you that I ask such questions?  If so, I am sorry.  But if you will recall the name of this discussion, it was set up so that I could ask these questions.  If you are so unsure of your own faith that these unanswered questions bother you, please don't read them.  I am not here to offend, I am here to learn, and I am learning more and more about Islam than my "self study" provides.

But in all fairness, please don't tell others what to do, God gave them the ability to reason and to think.  Let them use these abilities.

By the way, I have never said anyone was intolerant or have a violent disposition.  Please keep the discussion honest.

With all due respect,

Stephen
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Servetus View Drop Down
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Points: 2109 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2006 at 3:01pm

I, Servetus, wrote:
� but I would now, in return, ask that you [StephenC] note the following Quranic excerpt and satisfactorily answer what, in accepted Islamic tradition, is meant by �the sacred mosque� and where that mosque is located (2:141).

In response, you, StephenC, wrote:
So are you saying that there is only one sacred Mosque?

With all due respect, you don�t seem to be reading very carefully.  Please try to follow my instructions as carefully as I did yours and report back with the results.  On that basis, let us proceed.

Serv



Edited by Servetus
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StephenC View Drop Down
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Points: 264 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2006 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by Servetus Servetus wrote:

Originally posted by I, Servetus, I, Servetus, wrote:

� but I would now, in return, ask that you [StephenC] note the following Quranic excerpt and satisfactorily answer what, in accepted Islamic tradition, is meant by �the sacred mosque� and where that mosque is located (2:141).

Originally posted by In response, you, StephenC In response, you, StephenC wrote:

So are you saying that there is only one sacred Mosque?

With all due respect, you don�t seem to be reading very carefully.  Please try to follow my instructions as carefully as I did yours and report back with the results.  On that basis, let us proceed.

Serv

I'm sorry, I must be missing something.  I can not find where the Quran says one should pray towards Mecca.  In my copy someone has added to the Quranic text and included the word Mecca in brackets.  Now who this unknown person(s) is/are I do not know. 

Please give me more guidance.
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Points: 1035 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2006 at 4:51pm

After occasionally looking in on the �discussion� I am wondering why you all have the need to reply to any and all nonsense from StephenC? There may be a very good and valid reason and I may be the only one who doesn�t see it, and that is why I�m asking now.

It is obvious to me that StephenC�s intentions are most dishonest, and meant to antagonize and to insult Islam, the Koran and Muslims, and that he will NEVER respect your opinions and explanations.

I suspect that he, perhaps not alone, is sitting in front of his computer, laughing and saying: �Let me try and corner these na�ve Muslims (except that he probably calls you something worse than �na�ve�) with more salvos of �I honestly want to understand Islam� questions and rebuttals. Why do you all subject yourselves to such abuse?

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Points: 264 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 October 2006 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by Hanan Hanan wrote:

After occasionally looking in on the �discussion� I am wondering why you all have the need to reply to any and all nonsense from StephenC? There may be a very good and valid reason and I may be the only one who doesn�t see it, and that is why I�m asking now.

It is obvious to me that StephenC�s intentions are most dishonest, and meant to antagonize and to insult Islam, the Koran and Muslims, and that he will NEVER respect your opinions and explanations.

I suspect that he, perhaps not alone, is sitting in front of his computer, laughing and saying: �Let me try and corner these na�ve Muslims (except that he probably calls you something worse than �na�ve�) with more salvos of �I honestly want to understand Islam� questions and rebuttals. Why do you all subject yourselves to such abuse?

A lot of attacking the questioner, but not answering the questions!  Why is that?

If the questions are unanswerable or the answers are unacceptable, then say so.  But don't attack me because I ask them.

Bottom line appears to be that Islam is just as full of errors, contradictions, myths, and legends as all the other religions.  So why leave one religion for another?
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Servetus View Drop Down
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Points: 2109 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2006 at 8:46am

StephenC,

 

At the risk of consuming too much bandwidth, please allow me to review this conversation, at least our portion of it, from the top.

 

You initially wrote:
In the pure [sic] Quran, there is no command specifying [that Muslims pray toward] Mecca.

In response, I wrote:
Please produce your proof.

You wrote:
Go to islamicity.com (this website) and use the Quran search.  Enter the word "Mecca" (you can also try other spellings of it.  See if you can find where the Quran says to pray in the direction of Mecca (or other spelling).  Since we are discussing the "Pure Quran" please ignore the "clarifications" which have been added and are indicated by brackets.

I wrote:
Right.  Done.  You will please excuse me if I didn�t follow your instructions exactly as written, but I would now, in return, ask that you note the following Quranic excerpt and satisfactorily answer what, in accepted Islamic tradition, is meant by �the sacred mosque� and where that mosque is located (2:141) [insert Quran 2:142-144]: �

You wrote:
So are you saying that there is only one sacred Mosque �?
 

I wrote:
With all due respect, you don�t seem to be reading very carefully.  Please try to follow my instructions as carefully as I did yours and report back with the results.  On that basis, let us proceed.

You wrote:
I'm sorry, I must be missing something.  I can not find where the Quran says one should pray towards Mecca.

I understand.  In a literal sense, Makkah, or Mecca, and all spelling variants are not mentioned by name, you are quite right.  By way of analogy, or comparison, neither does the writer of St. Matthew�s Gospel mention �Jerusalem� by name when he refers to �the holy city� (Matt 4:5).  Something more than a literal reading is at this point required and it is here that deductive reasoning and references to historical tradition are a factor (thus, my request to you in return).

That said, I will continue to argue, as I have, that the Quran (and I do not at this point acknowledge the validity of your distinciton between a pure and an impure Quran) does instruct that Muslims pray towards Mecca and that I have provided the proof (2:144).  The onus is now upon you to complete my instructions, if you will, as a sort of quid pro quo, and to satisfactorily answer what is meant by �the sacred mosque� and where, according to accepted Islamic tradition, that mosque is located.  Once done, please read 2:144 in that light and draw your own conclusions. 

Without meaning to sound facetious, I might suggest that you not ask a Philippina air hostess working for Saudia Airlines to assist you in this matter.  She might not know, despite the fact that she wears the uniform hijab.  Just strap on a Google search engine and search some of the keywords that have here thus far been given, such as �qibla,� �the sacred mosque,� and even, for some background to this ayat, or verse, the Islamic historians, Ibn Ishaq and at-Tabari.  Soon enough, it seems to me, the matter should be resolved.

It's back to you.

Serv 

____________________

Thinking that one is being well informed by Fox News is like thinking that one is getting physically fit by watching an "Abs of Steel" infomercial.    



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Points: 2109 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2006 at 1:06pm

Corrigendum:

Above, and though I did provide all verses within context at the outset, I thereafter referred to Quran 2:141 when I should have said 2:144.  I am not sure which translation this is.  I got it from �Islamonline� and it ought to suffice.  It is a repeat of the above-provided text:

 

�We see the turning of thy face to the heavens: now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction.� (Al-Baqarah 2:144)

 

 

Serv


 



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