IslamiCity.org Homepage
QUESTION ABOUT ISLAM?
1 (866) 475-2601
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Islam for non-Muslims
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Who wrote Quran?  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search Search  Events Events  Register Register  Login Login

Who wrote Quran?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 13>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
beloved View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 29 July 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beloved Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2005 at 5:59am
Now this is amazing. Kindly scan back to the thread and you shall find your answer; aren't you being circular in your questions?
Closing one's eyes from the fact, won't help either.

Nowhere in the entire forum the entire list of names has been given.  Only a few scribes have been pointed out.  For your information, I will list them out.  Please read it completely.

By Yusuf. - "The Holy Qur'an is literally the Word of Allah, subhananhu was ta'ala. These words were placed in the heart of Saiduna Rasulullah salallahu alaihi wassalam who then recited them.
The extratextual evidence for the Holy Qur'an's authenticity, however, would not withstand modern academic methods of research. If you are sincere in your search for such evidence, you will be disappointed.

Because the Qur'an was revealed at a time prior to the establishment of methods of record preservation that are acceptable to modern research. The Ahaadith, for example, were collected and written generations after the departure of Saidnuna Rasulallah Salallahu alaihi wassalam. Even the Holy Qur'an was not placed into its final form until the Caliphate of Uthman, radiallahu anhu, and the rationale for the final composition was not recorded. Further, other redactions of the Qur'an that were determined to be inaccurate were destroyed. These are pieces of data that a contemporary researcher requires."

By Sarkeranwar - "Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.

-Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use.

-Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart.

Zayed, with the help of the companions who memorized and wrote verses of the Qur'an, accomplished the task and handed Abu Bakr the first authenticated copy of the Qur'an.

Uthman ordered Zayed Ibn Thabit, Abdullah Ibn Al Zubayr, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, and Abdur-Rahman Ibn Harith Ibn Hisham to make perfect copies of the authenticated copy kept with Hafsa."


So as you can see, we are more interested in the written Holy Quran before the Ahadith has come into existence.  And I am more interested in Zayed's compilation.  From whom did he compile the Holy Quran?  From where did Zayed compile the Holy Quran with the help of his compilations.

And as you yourself agree that no science is perfect, "Which science, you think, is perfect? Science is ever increasing phenomena with time and hence never consdiered to be "perfect".",  let us not consider the Ahadith.

Thank you.
Back to Top
AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 20 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1647
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2005 at 1:09pm

Originally posted by beloved beloved wrote:

Indeed humans are falliable, yet my brother howard believe that the Bible (NT) is inspired gospels of God, though, to anonymous people.

So much for the "anonymity" tag.  But what about the people of Holy Quran?

What do you mean by "people of the Holy Quran"? Are you joking? Yet I would refrain putting icons in my replies. 

Back to Top
AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 20 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1647
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2005 at 1:06pm

Originally posted by beloved beloved wrote:

Your points are baseless simply because of your unfamiliarity with the science of collection of ahadith.

Huh... The thing what you call science was "invented" more than a century after Prophet Muhammad's death.  And it is not a perfect science as you want to project it.

Which science, you think, is perfect? Science is ever increasing phenomena with time and hence never consdiered to be "perfect".

Quote

And if you find it hard to answer the question, you need not say that the points are baseless(and yet you have tried to "explain" my "misunderstandings") 

I don't don't think there is any outstanding question that is left over, though you may like to close yourself to them.

Quote

Your assertion of �anonymous writings� is yet another key word referring towards this ignorance.

If they were not anonymous writings, then what's the difficulty in giving the names of the authors?

Now this is amazing. Kindly scan back to the thread and you shall find your answer; aren't you being circular in your questions?

Quote

Brother, you have written so much.  But you haven't given me the required.
I am not the only one who responded you for your questions. Don't you think their replies are for your questions? Hmm!!

Quote   You keep on going to the Ahadith.  Until you give me the names, the source remains anonymous. 
Closing one's eyes from the fact, won't help either.

Quote

 You told something about "textual higher criticism" yet you haven't answered my question about it, "To be more precise, I would ask you to tell me about the "text" when you said "textual higher criticism"."

So you mean the ahadith are not considered as "text"? This is really getting more interesting than I thought.

Quote
If you want to tell about Ahadith, please start a different topic.

Thanks.

P.S. CRC is not only a networking "tool" but a concept used everywhere. 
BTW, its not a "tool", but a concept.

I don't claim to be ahadith scholar. On the more, don't you think the concepts can be used as tools? Think about it.

Back to Top
beloved View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 29 July 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beloved Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2005 at 6:02am
Indeed humans are falliable, yet my brother howard believe that the Bible (NT) is inspired gospels of God, though, to anonymous people.

So much for the "anonymity" tag.  But what about the people of Holy Quran?
Back to Top
beloved View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 29 July 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beloved Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2005 at 5:59am
Your points are baseless simply because of your unfamiliarity with the science of collection of ahadith.

Huh... The thing what you call science was "invented" more than a century after Prophet Muhammad's death.  And it is not a perfect science as you want to project it.

And if you find it hard to answer the question, you need not say that the points are baseless(and yet you have tried to "explain" my "misunderstandings")

Your assertion of �anonymous writings� is yet another key word referring towards this ignorance.

If they were not anonymous writings, then what's the difficulty in giving the names of the authors?

Brother, you have written so much.  But you haven't given me the required.  You keep on going to the Ahadith.  Until you give me the names, the source remains anonymous.  You told something about "textual higher criticism" yet you haven't answered my question about it, "
To be more precise, I would ask you to tell me about the "text" when you said "textual higher criticism"."

If you want to tell about Ahadith, please start a different topic.

Thanks.

P.S. CRC is not only a networking "tool" but a concept used everywhere. 
BTW, its not a "tool", but a concept.
Back to Top
AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 20 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1647
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2005 at 9:35am

Originally posted by howard howard wrote:

Just one little comment on the 'who wrote the Quran'
debate. I find it very interesting when Muslims say
"Allah wrote the Quran". Of course, upon reflection
even Muslims must reject this as for them the
Koranic "isnad" is Allah then Jibril then Mohammed
then scribes then Zaid ibn Thabit one, then Zaid ibn
Thabit two plus four Quraishi scribes. Allah might
have revealed the Quran but he did not WRITE it! And
humans are fallible!

However the uncosncious error that so many
Muslims make is not without its hidden signification.
It shows that for Muslims God became TEXT.

Thanks bro howard for your comments, though totally off the mark. The issue of "Allah wrote the Quran" was well addressed in the very begining of my posts where the term "scribe" was introduced to clarify this anomolly on the part of the originator of the topic.

Indeed humans are falliable, yet my brother howard believe that the Bible (NT) is inspired gospels of God, though, to anonymous people. 

Back to Top
howard View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: 25 September 2005
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 39
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote howard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2005 at 5:48am
Just one little comment on the 'who wrote the Quran'
debate. I find it very interesting when Muslims say
"Allah wrote the Quran". Of course, upon reflection
even Muslims must reject this as for them the
Koranic "isnad" is Allah then Jibril then Mohammed
then scribes then Zaid ibn Thabit one, then Zaid ibn
Thabit two plus four Quraishi scribes. Allah might
have revealed the Quran but he did not WRITE it! And
humans are fallible!

However the uncosncious error that so many
Muslims make is not without its hidden signification.
It shows that for Muslims God became TEXT.
Back to Top
AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 20 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1647
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2005 at 10:20am

O my dear beloved, though your response doesn't merit much consideration, yet I have tried to explain your misunderstandings. Hopefully, this may provide any help.

Quote

Hope I am not wasting your time as some members want others to believe.
And the answers I mostly get are similar, "baseless", "pointless" etc.

Your points are baseless simply because of your unfamiliarity with the science of collection of ahadith. Your assertion of �anonymous writings� is yet another key word referring towards this ignorance. Now coming to your response, let us see, what you argue, is it really worth considering?

Quote

Do you have any problem with this concept? Even the modern day courts accept this rule i.e. a person is considered truthfull untill proven other wise. Isn't it? So whats the problem?

I don't even bother about that concept because it is based on the recordings of, may be, second or third generation.  I wonder how people believed in the Holy Quran until the Ahadith were written.

And your arguement, "Even the modern day courts accept this rule i.e. a person is considered truthfull untill proven other wise." has nothing to do with our present discussion just because the collection is based on belief and not on factual or physical evidence.  And later in the topic you said something about "textual higher criticism" which means that their existed some text which is what our present topic deals with.  So "until proven otherwise" is out for now.

You have not provided any logical arguments to refute the evidences, though these might have remained verbal for a considerable amount of time in history; as you say. Verbal testimonies are legally admissible evidence even now than ever before. Dismissing them without any critical reasoning is not a valid criterion especially once the witnesses of writing down of Quran themselves existed among the population.


Quote
 
The science of higher criticism is a western science and it was "invented" a long time after Holy Quran was written. 

Is there anything known as �western science�? I don�t know when this science was invented by the �west� but I am only referring you to the science of collection of Ahadith i.e. a methodology for the collection of ahadith based on critical analysis. These ahadith are still under study in different part of the Muslim world and remain under debate and discussions through the use of any modern tools, you name it, to attest their authenticity. Those, which don�t pass such tests, are never considered to be reliable for any purpose. Hence as these tools get more refined, so is the authenticity of the ahadith literature.

 

Quote

 And this western science neither supports Holy Quran nor Ahadith.  So it is better not to discuss about it.

One would be na�ve to say this. Mere blank assertions are not enough. Bring your evidence on the table and we shall dissect it our selves.


Quote
Differing sects agreeing on different ahadith is not a weekness but is based on logical argumentation; differing on the rules of admissability of a particular hadith. But again, everyone presents their logical reasoning to accept or reject a hadith, hence not a matter of faith alone.

Do you mean to say one sect's logic is totally different from another sect's?  Then how can you call it "logic"?  Its like logic disproving logic, a cyclic redundancy check.

I would still refrain cutting figurative humors in my writings, though your icon seems to reflect back onto your illogical conclusions. Difference of opinions among scholars is based upon merits or standards to which they emphasize more on one aspect than the other. Again, I think, this reflects your total ignorance about this science. BTW, CRC is a useful networking tool, if you happen to know about it.

Quote   

This is just a hypothesis without specific proof. It can easily be contrasted with the science of ahadith collection/acceptance.

Whatever you call as "science" was "invented" more than a century after the demise of our beloved Prophet.  And there are more counter-proofs than there are proofs for your claim about Ahadith.

In the absence of any counter arguments, your assertions remain �baseless�. Isn�t it?

 

Quote
As I have already said, "textual higher criticism" is a science of evaluating the authenticity of a proclaimed historical document. Its not unique to ahadith only but is widely applied on all historical documents. Probably, early Muslim scholars were among the poineers of using this science to evaluate their own books before putting their faith in them. This is the reason that they have classified these ahadith into different categories. I hope this would motivate the readers to go and understand this science of higher criticism before casting aspertions on the validity of oral transmission.

Comparing science of Ahadith with science of higher criticism is not at all logical because as you said "differing on the rules of admissability of a particular hadith".  This means different sect had different rules unlike the science of higher criticism which is a common evaluation tool.

 

Oh, really? Since when this has become a �common evaluation tool�? Do you intend to say all scholars (100%) agree to one and the same issue every time? Only fools would think like that. I think, my brother has to learn the ABC of understanding of argumentative logic. A split decision by the panel of judges, who encounter the same evidence before them, is a better way of looking at this as an example of �difference of opinion�.

 

Quote

And we have gone way beyond our present topic.  Please, can we continue with the Zayed's compilation(which is much before any Hadith was written)?  From where Zayed has compiled Holy Quran if not from anonymous sources?  To be more precise, I would ask you to tell me about the "text" when you said "textual higher criticism".

 

I really couldn�t understand your assertion of �anonymous sources� here, if not from your ignorance of science of ahadith. Kindly bring any logic to refute this science especially once we know anonymity is the foremost dissecting tool to shrug off this kind of material from the list of authentic resources. Mere assertions would not help, nor your iconic impressions.

May Allah help all of us to understand the right path. Amen.



Edited by AhmadJoyia
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 13>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.