|
|
Post Reply 
|
Page <1 2829303132 47> |
| Author | |||||||||
Ron Webb 
Senior Member 
Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
 Posted: 19 November 2015 at 7:51am |
||||||||
Yes I have. Most of them confirm what I am saying: that the studies compare reported rapes, not actual rapes, and that comparisons of such stats across jurisdictions is questionable at best.
Fine. Your studies (the ones that show anything at all) show that Sweden is doing a much better job at encouraging women to report rapes rather than hide them out of shame or embarrassment. Good for them.
And that is why rapists in Muslim countries are rarely reported, and even more rarely convicted.
No modern Jewish or Christian nation would allow such a thing; but I understand that it is not uncommon in Muslim countries.
No, I said I didn't have time to comment on them all. I think I have read them all, or at least skimmed them; but there are so many that I couldn't keep track.
This article starts out by acknowledging that reporting rates are not indicative of actual rape: "Surveys suggest that as few as one in 10 cases are ever reported to the police in many countries, according to UN statistician Enrico Bisogno". Nonetheless, they proceed to report the claim that Sweden has the highest rate, taken from an article by Naomi Wolf on an "opinion website" (!) called Project Syndicate. I wasn't able to find the article on that site (was it withdrawn?); and the link to her source supplied by the IBTimes page is broken. I did eventually track down the source however, in Google's cache. As I flipped through the briefing document (not an actual study), I was puzzled, because the data sources it used were so obviously disparate. Each country's data was collected in a different way, using different definitions of rape and over different time frames. How could any serious researcher draw any conclusions comparing them? Finally, it dawned on me: this document was not intended to compare countries! Its purpose was to show variations over time, within each country. In fact, there is a small section (Page 8, "Reporting rates across Europe") to illustrate how country comparisons are meaningless. One example given is Sweden, with a reporting rate time times higher per capita than Greece. The detailed country data are given in appendices which are not included in the PDF version. However, it seems that Naomi Wolf must have pulled the raw data out of those appendices, made those spurious comparisons and jumped to a totally unjustified conclusion -- one that isn't in the document, and one which the authors specifically warned against.
Seriously? Seriously?? Did you even read the article? It starts out by quoting the same kind of skewed (reported rather than actual) statistics as before, but then explains the problem as follows: "...Muslims are vastly overrepresented among perpetrators of rape in Sweden." And you think this guy is on your side?? I closed the Web page before it polluted my computer.
Why? The article doesn't say anything about Sweden being the "rape capital of Europe". In fact, of the four countries specifically mentioned, Sweden ranks third -- and that is for violence in general, not just rape.
I'd say it's more about who gets to control women's lives: the women themselves, or their male relatives. In our culture, women dress however they wish. (Actually, in our culture the women usually end up telling the men how to dress, but that's another story.  )
|
|||||||||
|
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
|
|||||||||
 |
|||||||||
|
The Saint
Senior Member 
Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
Posted: 20 November 2015 at 7:51am |
||||||||
|
Yes I have. Most of them confirm what I am saying: that the studies compare reported rapes, not actual rapes, and that comparisons of such stats across jurisdictions is questionable at best.
Ok, tell me Webb, what is true? Are Muslims committing all the rapes in Sweden or, the rape nos are exaggerated because of reported rapes only? In the second case Muslims get absolved of the allegation. Fine. Your studies (the ones that show anything at all) show that Sweden is doing a much better job at encouraging women to report rapes rather than hide them out of shame or embarrassment. Good for them. It is because sex outside marriage is no big deal in your culture. Anyone can sleep with anyone. Very few believe in the sanctity of marriage anymore. But that is not so in Islam. Sex outside marriage is unthinkable and disgraceful, in Islam. And that is why rapists in Muslim countries are rarely reported, and even more rarely convicted. You do not really know that. You are just guessing and making a customary unfounded accusation. Shame on you! No modern Jewish or Christian nation would allow such a thing; but I understand that it is not uncommon in Muslim countries. That is what their good book says! And if those prescribed norms are not being followed then they are not obeying their alleged divine writ! Having said that I would now challenge you to prove here that that the biblical verses I quoted are actually practiced in Muslim countries? By quoting an incident from a news item are you prepared to declare it as a norm? http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/top-5-countries-highest-rates-rape-1434355 This article starts out by acknowledging that reporting rates are not indicative of actual rape: "Surveys suggest that as few as one in 10 cases are ever reported to the police in many countries, according to UN statistician Enrico Bisogno". Nonetheless, they proceed to report the claim that Sweden has the highest rate, taken from an article by Naomi Wolf on an "opinion website" (!) called Project Syndicate. I wasn't able to find the article on that site (was it withdrawn?); and the link to her source supplied by the IBTimes page is broken. I did eventually track down the source however, in Google's cache. As I flipped through the briefing document (not an actual study), I was puzzled, because the data sources it used were so obviously disparate. Each country's data was collected in a different way, using different definitions of rape and over different time frames. How could any serious researcher draw any conclusions comparing them? Finally, it dawned on me: this document was not intended to compare countries! Its purpose was to show variations over time, within each country. In fact, there is a small section (Page 8, "Reporting rates across Europe") to illustrate how country comparisons are meaningless. One example given is Sweden, with a reporting rate time times higher per capita than Greece. The detailed country data are given in appendices which are not included in the PDF version. However, it seems that Naomi Wolf must have pulled the raw data out of those appendices, made those spurious comparisons and jumped to a totally unjustified conclusion -- one that isn't in the document, and one which the authors specifically warned against. Why do you think Naomi Wolf do such a thing? However, you can save the apologies. I am not interested. I know your goal in proving that even in Europe Muslims are doing it all. Which is a massive propaganda lie! But let me remind you that it is your cultural norms that permit free sex in your societies whether urban or rural. To a very great extent cultural norms are dictated by religious norms. Christian and Jewish scriptures are riddled with sexually explicit content.That is why in their societies immorality is rampant. But Islamic sources are clean, healthy, pure and pious. That is why it is highly unlikely that Muslims would descend to levels such as found in Christian and Jewish societies Clearly Muslims are being maligned by certain hostile groups. In an astounding number of cases, the Swedish courts have demonstrated sympathy for the rapists, and have acquitted suspects who have claimed that the girl wanted to have sex with six, seven or eight men. I wonder why? There is info on the site that suggests rape has increased tremendously- The Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (Brottsf�rebyggande r�det; known as Br�) -- an agency under the Ministry of Justice -- 29,000 Swedish women, during 2011, reported that they had been raped (which seems to indicate that less than 25% of the rapes are reported to the police). Now why are less rapes reported by Swedish women> http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape I want to ask what is going on? What games are you people playing? Btw have not even begun talking rape in the US, yet. Why? The article doesn't say anything about Sweden being the "rape capital of Europe". In fact, of the four countries specifically mentioned, Sweden ranks third -- and that is for violence in general, not just rape. No, it does not. But it does reveal violence against women in all of EU! "Violence against women is "an extensive human rights abuse" across Europe with one in three women reporting some form of physical or sexual abuse since the age of 15 and 8% suffering abuse in the last 12 months, according to the largest survey of its kind on the issue, published on Wednesday." No Muslims are mentioned here. And Sweden is in Europe, isn't it? No wonder you were quick to dismiss this Guardian report? The survey, based on interviews with 42,000 women across 28 EU member states, found extensive abuse across the continent, which typically goes unreported and undetected by the authorities. Morten Kjaerum, director of FRA, the EU Agency for Fundamental Rights, which was responsible for the survey, said: "Violence against women, and specifically gender-based violence that disproportionately affects women, is an extensive human rights abuse that the EU cannot afford to overlook." Among the findings, to be unveiled in Brussels on Wednesday, are: � One in 10 women have experienced some form of sexual violence since the age of 15, while one in 20 has been raped. � One in 10 women have been stalked by a previous partner. � Most violence is carried out by a current or former partner, with 22% of women in relationships reporting partner abuse. � About one third (31%) who report being raped by a partner have been repeatedly raped, which the report defines as six or more times. � Violence against women is one of the least reported crimes. Only 14% of women reported their most serious incident of partner violence to the police, while a similar percentage (13%) reported their most serious incident of non-partner violence. � Just over one in 10 women experienced some form of sexual violence by an adult before they were 15. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/violence-against-women-eu The conclusion therefore, that can be drawn is that violence, including sexual violence is common and high in the EU, involving natives, it would be safe to say. I'd say it's more about who gets to control women's lives: the women themselves, or their male relatives. In our culture, women dress however they wish. (Actually, in our culture the women usually end up telling the men how to dress, but that's another story. I know. In your culture your women dress as they please. It is because you allow them to expose and exhibit themselves. You call that freedom. But it is a shameless exhibition of castrated self-respect or seeing nothing wrong in beholding your own sisters and daughters in various stages of undress. This is exactly what I have explained above. And it is nothing about controlling women. It is all about protecting them and honouring them. Edited by The Saint - 20 November 2015 at 7:53am |
|||||||||
|
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Ron Webb
Senior Member
Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
Posted: 20 November 2015 at 8:26pm |
||||||||
I don't know, but most things have multiple causes. I'm not blaming Muslims -- certainly not without much stronger evidence than your buddies at the Gatestone Institute presented. I wouldn't say that Swedish statistics are exaggerated. It's more that other countries' stats are vastly underreported, for a variety of reasons.
According to Sisters in Islam, a Malaysian women's rights group: "In reality, unless the rapist confesses to the crime, women can never prove rape at all if rape is placed under syariah jurisdiction. It is because of such gross injustice and abuse of the law that Sisters in Islam objected to several provisions which discriminated against women in the Hudud Enactment of Kelantan in 1993. The enforcement of such laws leaves rape victims who are unable to provide four male eye witnesses liable to prosecution for illicit sex."
Christians would argue that those Old Testament laws are no longer applicable. I'm not sure how Jews deal with it, but frankly I don't much care as long as they don't mistreat women.
Well, Egypt had such a law until 1999. Morocco repealed it less than two years ago. Jordan was still working on repealing the law a few months ago. But I believe Bahrain still has the law. So do Iraq, Tunisia. Syria, and lots of others. (I could be wrong about some of these -- there are so many I couldn't take the time to research them as carefully as I'd like.)
Laziness and carelessness, I suppose. Same as the reasons you don't check your facts carefully enough.
Hey, you were the one who linked to the Gatestone Institute, not me!
(Still quoting the Gatestone Institute, I see!) Umm, maybe because many of them weren't actually guilty? I dunno, we'd have to look at the specific cases. I'm certainly not going to take Gatestone's word for it.
Of course there is violence against women in the EU. And in the US. There is violence against women (and men too) all over the world. And that includes Muslim countries. The difference is that western countries are generally more open about sex, and the women are therefore more comfortable (though still not comfortable enough, unfortunately) in reporting the crimes; whereas women in Islamic cultures are so dishonoured by any tinge of sexual impropriety, not to mention legal systems that are overwhelmingly stacked against them, that they dare not speak up about it. |
|||||||||
|
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
The Saint
Senior Member
Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
Posted: 21 November 2015 at 4:05am |
||||||||
|
I don't know, but most things have multiple causes. I'm not blaming Muslims -- certainly not without much stronger evidence than your buddies at the Gatestone Institute presented. I wouldn't say that Swedish statistics are exaggerated. It's more that other countries' stats are vastly underreported, for a variety of reasons.
I see that you are now not blaming Muslims although earlier that was your thrust. And I have buddies in Canada also, what do you know about that? LOL According to Sisters in Islam, a Malaysian women's rights group: "In reality, unless the rapist confesses to the crime, women can never prove rape at all if rape is placed under syariah jurisdiction. It is because of such gross injustice and abuse of the law that Sisters in Islam objected to several provisions which discriminated against women in the Hudud Enactment of Kelantan in 1993. The enforcement of such laws leaves rape victims who are unable to provide four male eye witnesses liable to prosecution for illicit sex. In response to the Sisters in Islam, I am going to quote the Shariah position which removes a few misgivings: 158282: What is the difference between the ruling on rape and the ruling on fornication or adultery? Can rape be proven by modern methods? What is the ruling on rape? What is the punishment of the rapist? The problem is that the woman is always seen as the guilty party. The accusation made by non-Muslims is that the man�s word is always given precedence and there is no way for the woman to prove that she was raped, and hence the man gets away with his action. How can we prove that the man or woman is guilty, and if she was raped or committed fornication willingly? Is there any role for technology in this matter? How can we prove the crime so that the man will not get away with his action and avoid punishment?. Praise be to Allaah. Rape is essentially zina (fornication or adultery) and is proven in the same way as zina is proven, which is with four witnesses. The punishment is one hundred lashes if the man was a virgin and stoning if he was previously married. If rape is committed using the threat of a weapon or if the woman is abducted forcefully from her home, then it becomes a case of haraabah (banditry or terrorising the people), which is proven with two witnesses only. The punishment for it is mentioned in the verse in which Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): �The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter� [al-Maa�idah 5:33>. It should be noted that he becomes subject to this hadd punishment merely by abducting the woman forcefully, regardless of whether he has his way with her or not. Merely by abducting her he comes under the ruling of �qaati� at-tareeq� (lit. bandit); if he commits zina with her (rapes her), that his crime becomes more abhorrent because he has then combined two crimes: zina and haraabah. For more information please see the answer to question no. 72338 and 128448 Secondly: The accusations made by non-Muslims against Muslims, saying that the man's word is given precedence and that the woman cannot prove that she was raped, and that the man will get away with his action, is not correct. But one of the basic principles of both sharee�ah and man-made law, to which attention must be paid, is that the accused is innocent until proven guilty and the claim of the claimant � whether man or woman � cannot be accepted unless there is proof that it is valid. Hence the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: �If people were given on the basis of their claims, people would make claims on the blood and property of others. Rather the oath should be sworn by the defendant.� Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4277; Muslim, 1711 An-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said: This hadeeth represents one of the most important principles of shar�i rulings: it shows that no person�s word can be accepted merely on the basis of his claim; rather there is a need for evidence or confirmation from the defendant, and if the claimant wants to ask the defendant to swear an oath, he has the right to ask for that. The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) demonstrated the wisdom behind not giving on the basis of a mere claim, because if it were to be given on that basis, then some people would make claims on the blood and wealth of others, and would regard that as permissible, and the defendant would not be able to protect his wealth or blood. As for the claimant, he can protect his wealth and blood by means of proof. Sharh Muslim, 12/3 If the field were open for every woman to make claims of rape, the prisons would be filled to bursting with the men accused by those women, and they would not be able to prove their innocence. The matter is not so random that any woman�s claim may be taken as being true and certain, otherwise a woman could make a claim against her former lover in order to take revenge on him! Or she could make claims against rich and famous people and blackmail them, or against her father and brothers so as to escape their guardianship and authority. And these are things that would lead to the collapse of society. Thirdly: A woman�s claim to have been forced into zina can only be accepted on the basis of proof or strong circumstantial evidence. If there is no such evidence, then the hadd punishment is to be carried out on her as it is carried out on the zaani (the man who committed fornication or adultery). Ibn �Abd al-Barr (may Allah have mercy on him) said: She is not to be punished if it is proven that he forced her and overpowered her. That may be known from her having screamed and shouted for help. Al-Istidhkaar, 7/146 Fourthly: The presence of the man�s semen on the woman does not prove that rape has taken place. That may have happened with her consent, in which case she is as deserving punishment as he is. It may be that she is claiming that he raped her because of an argument between them, so that he will be punished or in order to blackmail him. So this is not proof that the crime of rape has taken place, nor is it proof that the crime of zina has taken place. It is possible that no real intercourse took place, but the semen entered her vagina or she put it there herself. The possibilities are many and according to sharee�ah, hadd punishments cannot be imposed on the basis of possibilities; rather it must be on the basis of proof. The results of DNA testing may be mistaken, or samples may be switched or the results may be falsified, so they cannot be taken as shar�i evidence on the basis of which hadd punishments are carried out. In the answer to question no. 103410 we quoted a statement from the Islamic Fiqh Council of the Muslim World League on the issue of DNA and ways of benefitting from it, in which it said: Firstly: there is no shar�i prohibition on relying on DNA in criminal investigations and regarding it as a means of proving evidence in crimes for which there is no hadd punishment or qisaas (retaliatory punishment) prescribed in Islam, because of the report which says, �Ward off hadd punishments by means of doubts (i.e., do not carry out hadd punishments if there is any doubt).� That is so as to achieve justice and security in society; it leads to the criminal getting the punishment he deserves and proving the innocence of the innocent. This is an important aim of sharee�ah. End quote. This statement indicates that the hadd punishment may not be applied to the accused if the evidence that is specified in sharee�ah in order for the crime to be proven is not available. But there may be strong circumstantial evidence to prove the case against the accused. In this case the judge may punish the accused with a disciplinary punishment (ta�zeer) as he sees fit. Then the accused (once he is proven guilty by circumstantial evidence) will not escape punishment. Even if this criminal is saved from punishment in this world, that is not due to a shortcoming in sharee�ah. It may be because there is not sufficient evidence or it may be because of shortcomings on the part of the judge or because he is not sufficiently qualified � and so on. Moreover, there is the punishment of the Hereafter that awaits him if he does not repent from his crime or if Allah does not forgive him. And Allah knows best. Christians would argue that those Old Testament laws are no longer applicable. I'm not sure how Jews deal with it, but frankly I don't much care as long as they don't mistreat women. Said Christians would be absolutely wrong, then. Because Jesus PBUH said Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. What do you say to that! And if the Jews are not dealing with their women as per biblical prescriptions they are not fulfilling the law of Moses! What do you have to say to that! Well, Egypt had such a law until 1999. Morocco repealed it less than two years ago. Jordan was still working on repealing the law a few months ago. But I believe Bahrain still has the law. So do Iraq, Tunisia. Syria, and lots of others. (I could be wrong about some of these -- there are so many I couldn't take the time to research them as carefully as I'd like.) If those stats are true clearly these Muslim countries are following Judaic laws. I understand that some Mosaic laws are still followed by Muslims. I think Rajm is a mosaic law. Laziness and carelessness, I suppose. Same as the reasons you don't check your facts carefully enough. Or, truth as she saw it. (Still quoting the Gatestone Institute, I see!) Umm, maybe because many of them weren't actually guilty? I dunno, we'd have to look at the specific cases. I'm certainly not going to take Gatestone's word for it. Yeah, I am! Till yesterday you had different views regarding Gatestone! LOL! But please do your research and let us know what you find. Of course there is violence against women in the EU. And in the US. There is violence against women (and men too) all over the world. And that includes Muslim countries. The difference is that western countries are generally more open about sex, and the women are therefore more comfortable (though still not comfortable enough, unfortunately) in reporting the crimes; whereas women in Islamic cultures are so dishonoured by any tinge of sexual impropriety, not to mention legal systems that are overwhelmingly stacked against them, that they dare not speak up about it. I am quite pleased to hear some refreshing admissions regarding how violence against women is prevalent in other nations and communities also. Even in the so-called most advanced country in the world. I would like to point-out to you that man always makes laws to suit himself (Remember when the western world outlawed slavery?) But only divine laws protect everyone. I have posted a fatwa above that should explain to you that Islamic laws consider all aspects of human interactions and are prescribed to protect both men and women from each other. But do take into consideration that Islamic freedoms to women are not the same as are available in western secular societies. You might know that in the middle of the US there is an Amish community that is ultra conservative in its norms of daily life. |
|||||||||
|
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
The Saint
Senior Member
Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
Posted: 21 November 2015 at 4:11am |
||||||||
|
You may also like to read how laws in certain states permit rapists to escape_
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/05/01/jennys-law-rape-indiana/26696521/ |
|||||||||
|
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
The Saint
Senior Member
Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
Posted: 21 November 2015 at 7:41am |
||||||||
|
Kindly also read this:
https://rainn.org/news-room/97-of-every-100-rapists-receive-no-punishment |
|||||||||
|
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Ron Webb
Senior Member
Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
Posted: 21 November 2015 at 9:38pm |
||||||||
Never. That was what your source, the infamous Gatestone Institute, claimed.
So do I.
Is there some point you're trying to make here? Because as far as I can see, everything you copied just confirms what I said. It is nearly impossible for a woman to prove rape under sharia law, and if she fails, then she is punished, not him. Is it any wonder that women in Muslim countries hardly ever report a rape?
What I already said: I don't care. As long as they are not punishing rape victims instead of the perpetrators, they can justify it to their God any way they like.
Maybe, but it is also sharia. Whatever you call it, the only countries that still impose such laws are Islamic. |
|||||||||
|
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Ron Webb
Senior Member
Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
Posted: 21 November 2015 at 9:44pm |
||||||||
Any info on the rate for Muslim countries? I didn't think so. I bet it's lower than the number of rape victims who are punished. |
|||||||||
|
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Post Reply
|
Page <1 2829303132 47> |
Tweet
|
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
The Original Sin
Topic Options
The Saint wrote: