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Topic ClosedThe Original Sin

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BaruchHaba View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2015 at 7:27am
The Saint: The idea is central to Christianity. In fact, it is the justification for raising Jesus PBUH to the status of a god.
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Being new to this site, the subject of original sin caught my eye. As The Saint points out, this concept is central to Christianity; however, it is also inherent in Judaism. Before getting deeper into that subject and The Saint's many misconceptions of Christianity, I'd first like to respond to his statement right out of the gate that Jesus was "raised to the status of a god." That seems to me to be the biggest misconception a muslim has in understanding the centrality of the cross in Christianity: believing a mere man supposedly paid for the penalty of the sins of mankind. That would be repugnant to anyone to think another human could/would pay for another man's sins. Born with a sin nature is so obvious to see and so woven into the fabric of all humans that it can be seen in the actions of children. They are "innocent" until a certain age (different for different cultures), but that innocence does not belie their sin nature. In the Old Covenant, animal sacrifice covered the sins of the Jews; in the New Covenant, the sinless Son of God shed his blood for whosoever accepted his sacrifice on their behalf. Man is not sinner because he sins; he sins because he is a sinner. Unless one can grasp this reality, he will wander through a useless intellectual fog and argue with all his might against the concept of original sin. To do otherwise, would be to admit he is in need of a savior because one being born in sin obviously cannot extricate himself from it.

Edited by BaruchHaba - 24 November 2015 at 7:30am
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The Saint View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2015 at 5:11am
Being new to this site, the subject of original sin caught my eye. As The Saint points out, this concept is central to Christianity; however, it is also inherent in Judaism.

The idea of a original sin in Judaism is totally wrong. Read Judaism's Rejection of Original Sin

Saint Augustine (354-430) was the first theologian to teach that man is born into this world in a state of sin. The basis of his belief is from the Bible (Genesis 3:17-19) where Adam is described as having disobeyed G-d by eating the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden. This, the first sin of man, became known as original sin.

Many Christians today, particularly members of the Anglican, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, and Presbyterian Churches, subscribe to this belief. They maintain that the sin of Adam was transferred to all future generations, tainting even the unborn. Substantiation for this view is found in the New Testament (Romans 5:12) where Paul says, "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. By one man's disobediance many were made sinners."

Christianity believes that only through the acceptance of Jesus that the "grace" of G-d can return to man. A Christian need only believe in Jesus to be saved; nothing else is required of her.

The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews (as it is to Christian sects such as Baptists and Assemblies of G-d). Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html


Before getting deeper into that subject and The Saint's many misconceptions of Christianity, I'd first like to respond to his statement right out of the gate that Jesus was "raised to the status of a god." That seems to me to be the biggest misconception a muslim has in understanding the centrality of the cross in Christianity: believing a mere man supposedly paid for the penalty of the sins of mankind. That would be repugnant to anyone to think another human could/would pay for another man's sins.

Born with a sin nature is so obvious to see and so woven into the fabric of all humans that it can be seen in the actions of children. They are "innocent" until a certain age (different for different cultures), but that innocence does not belie their sin nature. In the Old Covenant, animal sacrifice covered the sins of the Jews; in the New Covenant, the sinless Son of God shed his blood for whosoever accepted his sacrifice on their behalf. Man is not sinner because he sins; he sins because he is a sinner. Unless one can grasp this reality, he will wander through a useless intellectual fog and argue with all his might against the concept of original sin. To do otherwise, would be to admit he is in need of a savior because one being born in sin obviously cannot extricate himself from it.

As far as I know Jesus PBUH never claimed that he was God Almighty. And Jesus is not the only one to claim he was the son of God. Almost literally there are sons of God by tonnes in the Bible.

As regards the Original Sin Islam holds: ��No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another�� (Quran 6:164) and the Bible says �The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.� (Deuteronomy 24:16)

Also: Ezekiel 18:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

As for the sin of Adam, the Quran tells us that he repented for his sin. God revealed to him words with which to repent, which He then accepted from him.

�Then Adam received Words (of forgiveness) from his Lord, and He accepted his repentance. Verily, He is the One Who repeatedly accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.� (Quran 2:37)

It is surprising also that such a huge concept of Christians, 'Original Sin' has no mention in the bible.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2015 at 7:32am
Kindly also read this:

https://rainn.org/news-room/97-of-every-100-rapists-receive-no-punishment

Any info on the rate for Muslim countries? I didn't think so. I bet it's lower than the number of rape victims who are punished.

Betting is illegal in Islam. And your accusation, without any proof amounts to calumny. So you are double damned!
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2015 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by The Saint The Saint wrote:

Betting is illegal in Islam. And your accusation, without any proof amounts to calumny. So you are double damned!

Oh, you don't know the half of it! Evil%20Smile
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2015 at 6:31am
The Saint: Many Christians today, particularly members of the Anglican, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, and Presbyterian Churches, subscribe to this belief. They maintain that the sin of Adam was transferred to all future generations, tainting even the unborn. Substantiation for this view is found in the New Testament (Romans 5:12) where Paul says, "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. By one man's disobediance many were made sinners." Christianity believes that only through the acceptance of Jesus that the "grace" of G-d can return to man. A Christian need only believe in Jesus to be saved; nothing else is required of her.
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You are partially correct, Saint, as to the doctrine of original sin taught in the denominations you mentioned. However, I am not aware of any Christian denomination that does not teach that doctrine, since it underpins man's need for salvation from Genesis to Revelation. It is not so much that Adam "transferred" his sin to man; it is that when Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command, that sin caused them to die spiritually, resulting in estrangement from God. Therefore, everyone born since our first parents sinned take on that Adamic sin nature; thus, the need to be "born again" in order to once again enjoy untarnished fellowship with God.    So, how can it be that any child is able to escape being born without the propensity to sin? How is it any different from babies taking on physical characteristics from their parents? It's in the genes. Those are mysteries that belong to God, but it helps to understand the backdrop of original sin, how it began and the remedy for it.   The scripture you cited from Romans sums up the answer to man's dilemma in a simple way, but there is nothing simple about the trail that leads from the tree in the Garden of Eden to the tree on Golgotha....it was not simply flesh and blood of a man who, as you stated, was "raised to the status of a god" on that cross. No, it was God himself manifested in flesh and blood so that he might honor his holiness and satisfy his judgment against sin by becoming the only acceptable blood sacrifice to atone for the sins of man. Sinful man was simply unable and unqualified to be the sacrificial Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. He who humbly accepts the sacrifice of Jesus' death, shall have eternal life and be with God forever.    There is only one God, Saint, and that is something we can agree together on. How can God be the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons in one? How can the sun rise and set, how can the earth spin on its axis without whirling off into space? Muslims can believe that Mohammad "split the moon" but they can't believe that God Almighty can be manifested in the flesh without jeopardizing his being God? Think about it....

Edited by BaruchHaba - 26 November 2015 at 6:32am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2015 at 7:17am
Oh, you don't know the half of it! Evil%20Smile

Don't worry about me. Look where you are going!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2015 at 7:05am
You are partially correct, Saint, as to the doctrine of original sin taught in the denominations you mentioned. However, I am not aware of any Christian denomination that does not teach that doctrine, since it underpins man's need for salvation from Genesis to Revelation.

Are you saying that this doctrine is taught in all denominations?

It is not so much that Adam "transferred" his sin to man; it is that when Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command, that sin caused them to die spiritually, resulting in estrangement from God. Therefore, everyone born since our first parents sinned take on that Adamic sin nature; thus, the need to be "born again" in order to once again enjoy untarnished fellowship with God.

As regards Man's salvation, it is not dependent on any one. He himself can find his salvation through his own good deeds.

And the above is supported by Ezekiel 18:20 King James Version (KJV), as quoted yesterday, too.

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


No, it was God himself manifested in flesh and blood so that he might honor his holiness and satisfy his judgment against sin by becoming the only acceptable blood sacrifice to atone for the sins of man.

Where does the question of a sacrifice arise when Ezekiel 20 states ".........The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..........."?:

Sinful man was simply unable and unqualified to be the sacrificial Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. He who humbly accepts the sacrifice of Jesus' death, shall have eternal life and be with God forever.

Jesus PBUH made no sacrifice. In fact, he was prevented from the ignominy of being strung on a cross. As criminals were in those days.

There is only one God, Saint, and that is something we can agree together on. How can God be the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons in one?

Indeed, God is One!


How can the sun rise and set, how can the earth spin on its axis without whirling off into space? Muslims can believe that Mohammad "split the moon" but they can't believe that God Almighty can be manifested in the flesh without jeopardizing his being God? Think about it....

If Muhammad PBUH split the moon, he could do it by God's grace only. But God Almighty never reduced Himself to a humanly form. There was never any reason to do so.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2015 at 8:25am
Saint, thanks for your responses. Clearly, they come from an inquiring and inquisitive mind. I will try to respond in a brief way to very deep theological issues.

1. I do not know of any Christian denomination that does not teach the biblical doctrine of original sin. If you know of one, please enlighten me.

2. Islam is just one of many religions that teaches salvation through good works. The problem with such teaching, however, is that one cannot know when his deeds are good enough in quality and quantity to merit eternal life. That is beyond sad; it is mental slavery.

3. The Ezekiel passage you quote does not abrogate the need for sin atonement; it simply states that man will bear his own sins. That's true of course; hence, the Jewish ritualistic animal sacrifice in their temple for the atonement of the people's sins once a year.

4. Something to keep in mind when attempting to interpret the Bible is this: has any Old Covenant teaching been changed or clarified by the New Covenant? For example, in the OC, someone caught in adultery was stoned to death. In the NC, Jesus zeroed in on the root cause of adultery: Mat. 5:28 "...anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Jesus showed that adultery does not begin with the physical act, but in the heart. And further, Jesus admonished that of those accusers who had picked up stones to kill the adultress for the one without sin to throw the first stone. They all dropped their stones and walked away and the woman was forgiven and told to go and sin no more.

5. Re your Ezek. 20 question, not bearing the sins of the father does not cancel out the need for man to have a remedy for his own sins. That is why Jesus came, to be the scapegoat, the propitiation, the blood atonement for sinful man. If good deeds could save a man, there would be no need for any repentance. Back to the question of the appropriate quantity/quality of good works and never knowing how much was enough....very tyrannical doctrine, I think.

6. Yes, Saint, Jesus was sacrificed on an old Judean hill called Calvary. That is not only biblical, it is historical. Do not believe Islam's dogma that flies in the face of irrefutable facts. The atoning death of Jesus Christ is central to understanding sin, sacrifice, judgement, propitiation, grace, and ultimately, God's deep and abiding love for us. Once you come to grips with these issues, you will be utterly slain by the extent and depth of God's love for you, personally.

7. That God could and would take on human flesh is probably the biggest hurdle for a muslim to climb in understanding who Jesus Christ was/is. It is simply not enough to acknowledge him as a prophet, Saint. We cannot grasp with our minds how deity can inhabit flesh and blood and not jeopardize his being God. Well, how could we understand unless we were God himself. Christians take on faith that the Bible is God's Word to his creation.

8. It is interesting to me the lengths to which muslims go in trying to destroy the bedrock of biblical scriptures upon which Mohammad's teachings lie. I understand that in order to build up Islam, there had to be the dogma of biblical error. That is truly a travesty, because there are probably millions of muslims who are likely in true pursuit of God, but have been led astray with this false teaching against the Bible. As to faith, when you think about it, it takes faith for a muslim to believe that Mohammand split the moon, whether by God's grace or not! Is there any historical evidence for Mohammad splitting the moon? And why did he supposedly do such a thing? We both have faith, Saint, but what is important is the object of our faith and the teachings thereof.
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