The Original Sin

I think till this point we are in agreement and please correct me if I am wrong when I summarize that:- 'Sin Nature' of Adam is, by design and not by choice of Adam. So, when tempted by Satan, this 'sin nature' forced him to listen to Satan and ignore the God's command. Thus he sinned.

No, Adam and Eve did not sin out of a sin nature. According to Scripture, God created Adam and Eve in an innocent state, but he created them with a free will, and thus they could chose to obey God or not. When they were tempted by Satan and disobeyed God by eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they lost their innocence and were separated from God (spiritual death). It's important to understand that Adam and Eve didn't have their sin nature when they were tempted by Satan; they had a free will that chose disobedience over obedience. All men since our first parents, therefore, are born estranged from our Creator, exercise their knowledge of good and evil, and are spiritually dead until such time they are "born again." John 3:3. Being born again is the only way by which man can enter the kingdom of God and live with him forever.

Ok, from here the problem of my understanding starts. When you say "We don't pay for Adam's sin, we do however, inherit his sin nature.", then this is against your own statement when you say "Jesus died for our sins". Similarly, there should not be any damage to the mankind for Adam's sin for which you theorize that " He undid the damage .....".

We inherit the propensity to sin through the Adamic nature we inherit. However, because we are not born in innocence as Adam and Eve first were, we can chose good or evil and do so every day of our lives. Adam and Eve's payment for sin was banishment from God. We are born already banished from God, so one could blame our first parents for the state we find ourselves in, but God in his great loving kindness, made a way back to a right relationship with him through His Son. Has given us a way out that Adam and Eve didn't have. When God killed an animal so that they could have their nakedness/sin covered, that was a foreshadowing of what Jesus would do for us on Calvary. His blood, of course, was more efficacious than the blood of an animal which merely covered sin. The blood shed by Jesus Christ erased our sins.

This is where I say the invention of such an unfathomable theory in which "the all powerful God has to deceive to Himself" to undo something which he could easily do by just saying 'Be' and everything would be done. Why all that hassle? What is the logic/wisdom behind this theory?

Good question. I do not know the mind of God. However, I don't understand why you think "God deceived himself." Why try to put God in a box? Yes, he can just say "Be" (like he did with creation), or he can do something in a myriad of other ways, like creating man out of the dust of the earth. He's God; we're not.

I think this is parable which I may clarify through your explanation as follows:
1. First of all what is meant by 'man be born again'? From your explanation I found the answer to be "Become Christian".
2. Secondly what is meant by 'kingdom of God'? From your explanation I may construe the answer to be "Salvation".
So, now once after becoming Christian, if you still do sin, your forgiveness is assured because Christ has already atoned your debt.
Let me know if I made any mistake in this understanding from your convoluted explanation. So, kindly show me the difference in your idea of repentance and the repentance that Muslims make of their sins, except that you think Jesus has already paid the price, whereas we think there is no price to be paid simply because for Adam's sin, only he was responsible and no one else down the line. In the same context, you didn't answer about the fate of those people who were born after Adam but died before the arrival of Jesus. Can you now answer it, please.
Best regards.

Being born again, means being a follower of Jesus Christ. Are there "Christians" who were born in the faith who are not followers of Christ? No doubt. Being born in a family of Christians (who order their lives according to Scripture) should put one in a position to understand what happened at Calvary, acknowledge that Jesus died for our sins and accept him as Lord and Savior (being born again). Do we still sin after being born again? Yes, in many ways, but our repentance is based on Jesus' sacrifice, not just because we are sorry for our sins, although that is part of it. Jesus Christ is the cornerstone and the only way to God for all mankind. He said, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by me (John 14:6). Either he lied or he was telling the truth. I believe he was telling the truth. Being a follower of Jesus, as revealed through holy Scripture, is available and necessary for every man.

As to people who were born after Adam but before Jesus, God had instituted a "blood covering" for man's sins from the time of Adam when God shed the blood of an animal so its skin could be used to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve. From the beginning, there has been a need for a blood sacrifice for man's sins. The Jews, of course, established a ritual by which to offer a blood sacrifice in the Holy of Holies, which was separated from the rest of the tabernacle by a heavy veil. Another topic for another time, but I will say this: when Jesus died on the cross, that veil was torn from the top to the bottom (Mat. 27:51), thus opening the way to God's presence. I can only guess at how strange this all must sound to your Muslim ears, Ahmad. But thanks for the opportunity to try my best to explain the biblical position. Best regards to you, too.

Greetings Ahmad. I will try to respond to your comments/questions by numbering them:

1. in their state of innocence, Adam and Eve could hear Satan, but they didn't have to listen to him and believe his lies. Problem was that they were beguiled by him with his temptations (Gen. 3:6) and freely chose his lies over obedience to God. (Truthfully, Ahmad, we are no different. Who among has has not been enticed into sin of one kind or another?) ALL babies are born with the same nature to sin. One may be born in a Christian family but does not become a Christian until he comes to understand and accept Jesus Christ as his savior. A man doesn't become a Muslim unless he makes his shahada, right?

2. No, it is not my theory. Chapter 3 of Genesis lays out the sad fall of man.

3. The knowledge of good and evil is not the same thing as free will. We exercise our will in choosing to do good or evil. When a man makes his shahada, he tries to be obedient to Allah, doesn't he? Same with a Christian man who seeks to be obedient to Jesus Christ, the Son of God. John 14:6: Jesus answered, �I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." That is truly like a red flag to a bull for others of a different religion. Jesus either lied or told the truth.

4. I understand how "unfair" it may seem that all mankind inherits Adam's sin nature. However, Jesus Christ undid the damage by making it possible for a man to be "born again" (John 3:3 - Jesus replied, �Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." A man is born again when he surrenders to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in his life. This happens once a man understands that all his righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6 - All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.) If all our righteous deeds are but filth in God's eyes, what can save us? Only the precious blood of Jesus Christ.

5. You bring up a good question, Ahmad, but I do not have full understanding of how the covering (pre-Jesus) and erasing (post-Jesus) of our sins are different, except that both the covering and erasing accomplished the same end. It is enough for me to know that my sins have been, and continue to be, dealt with at Calvary.

6. Do you understand everything about your own faith? I think not, unless you can explain to me how Muhammad split the moon. It would be prideful to refuse to admit if someone does not understand something, would it not?

7. The difference is that Christians are not forgiven simply based on their repentance, but on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. He only needed to die once for the sins of mankind, but his offering was an eternal event. Revelation 13:8 states, "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast�all whose names have not been written in the Lamb�s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world." John 1:29 - John the Baptist says, upon seeing Jesus - , "...�Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

8. If the "covering" and "erasing" of sins accomplished the same end of removing one's sins before God, where is the injustice?

Hello Saint. Neither Unitarianism nor Mormonism is a bonafide "Christian" religion because of their denial or perversion of doctrinal positions held by adherents to biblical scripture.

That doesn't mean Unitarians or Mormons are bad people; it just means that because they do not believe the basic tenets of the Christian faith they cannot truly be considered "Christian." Actually, Unitarians have a lot in common with humanism

Hello Haba.That, I am afraid, is something you cannot decide. If I spoke to either of these people or others I mentioned in my post, whom by the way you have eliminated from your response, they will say the same about you.

(https://www.unitarian.org.uk/sites/default/files/1973_What_Do_Unitarians_Believe.pdf). They mention a Jesus, but do not believe scripture that he is co-equal with God in the trinity.

Please state clearly what are you referring to when you say scripture? Is it the Bible? If so, is it OT or NT? Or, both?

As for Mormonism, they have a truly twisted doctrine in their "Blood Covenant". Such doctrine holds that there are some sins which man can commit that are so heinous, that the blood shed by Jesus on the cross is unable and insufficient to make atonement for them. Such a man must shed his own blood for those grave sins by having his throat cut "from ear to ear." Just because Islam, Mormonism or Unitarianism uses the name of "Jesus", that does not mean they are talking about the Jesus of the OC/NC.

I have already said that Jesus PBUH cannot wash away anyone's sins because that is not part of God Almighty's plan. Every human being must pay for his own sins. Because this life is a life of test. The idea that Jesus PBUH died to atone for your or my sins is a heresy of the true Abrahamic religion. A fabrication, introduced by vested interests later. Jesus PBUH could never have truly said he could forgive anyone.

They have another Jesus. One must understand definitions in order to get to the heart of a matter. If you don't have the real Jesus of Nazareth, you are just wasting your time and jeopardizing any chance of eternal life. Satan is so clever. He takes a grain of truth and builds an empire of lies on it! He especially tries to obfuscate the true Jesus because he knows it was the blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, shed on Calvary that defeated him.

Jesus PBUH was one of the greatest messengers of God Almighty as such he could defeat satan whenever he wanted by the Grace of Allah SWT. This is the true Jesus PBUH. One created by Allah SWT miraculously. He was sent to lead the Jews out of darkness. And one who was carried away to the heavens where he is till today. But he will come back, one day.

As to adhering to the Five Pillars of Islam, even if you are faithful in performing those good works, there is still no assurance that you did so perfectly. Perhaps Allah doesn't mind. Maybe his standard for repentance and good works is low enough that anyone who at least goes through the motions, regardless of his sincerity, is good enough to have eternal life.

Not sure what that says about the character of Allah, but at the very least, it suggests that he doesn't have too much problem with sin as long as a man tries to eradicate it by "good works", regardless of the condition of his heart (out of which all sin comes).

Where did you pick-up all this gibberish from? It is pure illogical hokum!

First of all, let me ask you, why do you think there is no assurance that our good works could be perfect, particular when we are instructed by the Holy Prophet PBUH who himself, was taught by Allah SWT, God Almighty. Also, why would we go astray if we have the glorious Quran to guide us and the Sunnah of the Prophet PBUH as examples?

The Quran and the Sunnah are more than sufficient for us to lead a sinless life and to find Allah's pleasure in this life and the life hereafter. In Sha Allah.

We agree on Mat. 5:17. It has never been my belief or contention that Jesus came to abolish the law. God forbid! Jesus fulfilled all the requirements of the law (Luke 24:4). The whole Book of Hebrews is a fascinating read, Saint, on how and why the NC is "better" than the OC. The OC law was tyrannical in its demands for the payment of sins, which is why no man was ever able to fulfill all the requirements of the law and why the blood of animals was shed to cover their sins. Until Jesus Christ came into the world. His blood didn't just cover or hide sins, it eradicated the sins of "whosoever put their trust in Him and his shed blood. A good analogy that you may have heard before is like a guilty man who stands before a judge in a court of law after being found guilty of crimes and someone steps forward and offers to take the punishment of the guilty man. It may seem unfair to the Muslim mind that an innocent man should have to pay for the sins of another, but it takes us right back to the question of how a sinful man can pay for his sins. The logic is evident: a man who is sinful is unable and unqualified to pay for his own sins. Good works are but filthy rags, according to the prophet Isaiah.

I am not sure if Prophet Isaiah is being quoted correctly here. But I do not agree with the logic that a sinful man is "unable and unqualified to pay for his own sins. Good works are but filthy rags, according to the prophet Isaiah".

I understand, though why you are saying all this because a justification is needed, a bedrock, as it were to build the entire edifice of trinitarian Christianity. Which, in truth is a perversion of what Jesus PBUH upon actually preached. It is ironic that today you are following a faith which turned the faith Jesus PBUH preached, on its head! You are following Constantine, Paul and Augustus. People who never met Jesus PBUH!

Saint,you stated, "Why? Repentance is a must! Otherwise man will continue to sin without repentance and there will be no forgiveness from God and sins will go on piling. Therefore, know, that good deeds without repentance for earlier sins and declaration to desist from same is the way to salvation." I think that must be a typo. I think you mean, "good deeds WITH repentance..."?

Yes, it is a typo. I meant to say, 'that good deeds with repentance for earlier sins and declaration to desist from same is the way to salvation."

I am stunned by your assertion that there are "no records [of Jesus Christ] in the secular domain"! You seem to be an educated man, Saint, so you may be interested in pursuing this line of inquiry. Here are some good sources to start with: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-historical-evidence-is-there-to-support-the-existence-of-jesus-christ/

Most of the figures mentioned at the site you pointed me to are Christian scholars but even they were not contemporaries of Jesus PBUH.

"One of the chief problems confronting scholars interested in the historicity of Jesus is that there are no contemporary records of his life or existence. Like many other historic figures of antiquity, all records of his historicity come from one or more generations after his death, the earliest source being that found in the Epistles of Paul dated to AD 59, who reported on his crucifixion. Other sources such as that of Josephus or Tacitus date even later. Historians interested in the historicity of Jesus are confronted by discussing the nature of these historic records and the intention and points of view of their authors[3>[4>"

Also, as I understand it, in Islam at least three suras of the Quran are named after references to Jesus (3, 5 and 19) and he is mentioned in 15 suras and 93 verses. Since Muhammad mentions the "People of the Book" numerous times, he was referring to biblical scripture, hence biblical Jesus.

Quran is scripture, not a secular record. But it is true that Jesus PBUH is mentioned 25 or so times in the Quran. There is also a Surah named after Mary RA.

People of the book, let me remind you, refers to scriptures called the Taurat and the Injeel. But today Jews and Christians are following neither. They are following a book called the bible, which may or may not have those afore-mentioned scriptures.

Also, "Josephus, The Essential Writings" is an excellent historical source to pursue. Additionally, Stephen Swartz's "The Other Islam: Sufism and the Road to Global Harmony" offers an attempt to reconcile Islam and Christianity through the person of Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, however, the Muslim Isa and the Jewish/Christian Yeshua/Jesus are not the same personages. The fact that Isa is even mentioned in the Quran is testament to what I meant about how Satan will taken a truth and build a false narrative around it. Also, as I understand it, "Isa" has no meaning in Arabic, in contrast to "Jesus" (he saves people from their sins; God with us - Emmanuel; read Luke chapter 2). Food for thought.

Let me state categorically, no Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus PBUH as a great Prophet of Allah SWT. So, Muslims do not deny either the miraculous birth of Jesus PBUH nor his ascension. They only reject the Christian claim that Jesus PBUH was the 'begotten son' of God, Allah SWT. The Muslims' Jesus PBUH, is naturally different from the Jewish/Christian Jesus. Actually, even the Jewish Jesus is very, very different from the Christian Jesus. Although they both believe in the same book, The Bible.

And the name Isa means strong willed.

Why would God take on human flesh and allow himself to be crucified for the sins of mankind, you ask. Because man cannot save himself, by good works or otherwise.
That is a hurdle that must be crossed before one can understand Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Why would God do anything is not necessarily for his creation to know.
Logic loses its appeal in the face of our transcendent, almighty, righteous and loving God.

The question is why not? Why would God Almighty debase Himself to the level of an ordinary mortal and that too, to do something illogical? Of course, He knows, that man CAN save himself by repenting and doing good works. And to steadfastly believe that God is One. Quran 112.

God never does anything illogical or unreasonable. He makes rules and He maintains them and ensures they are observed by His creations. In the realm of human kind He allows cause and effect. As per His laws birds fly and fish swim and never do they do anything against their nature. Man is the best of all creations. For Him, He has made certain rules. One of them is that he must walk. He cannot fly. So, he does not. Likewise he has given man other qualities. He has bestowed man with intelligence and a nature designed to do good.
Through his intelligence man can differentiate between good and evil and the pros and cons thereof.

Yes, of course, God can simply say, "Be" and the thing is done. But why would anyone want to limit God by disbelieving that he could do something in a way that is much more complex than just saying "Be!" He's God, we're not, so it is pretty arrogant for anyone to try to limit God. We will never be able to plummet the depth or breadth of God because we are in the created realm, and thus will always come short in understanding things of eternal weight and glory.

Undoubtedly, God Almighty can do anything. He is all-powerful. He is forgiving and beneficent. So, He does Godly things. We do not expect Him to go to a football match? Now, do we?

I think the Bible puts it beautifully, 'How then can a mortal be righteous before God? How can one born of woman be pure?'. Job 25:4

Sorry, Saint, but it is utterly hogwash to state that Islam is the oldest religion! It's only been around 1400 years or so. You can try to twist Islam backwards all the way to Adam, but it is the Jewish religion, the People of the Book, as Muhammad calls them, that gave us the scriptures, that gave us the Messiah.

I am hoping you know that Islam means submission to the will of God. Now tell me what have all the prophets of God been doing while preaching the commandments of God. Submitting, yes, submitting to the will of God. That makes all of the Muslims.

Look in your bible and try to find the words Judaism or Christianity.

Greetings Saint, I will number my responses in order of your previous (not current) comments:

1. I stand by my statement about Mormons and Unitarians. A Christian, in the biblical sense, is someone who follows Jesus Christ (and his teachings), who is revealed in the OC/NC Scriptures. Both Mormonism and Unitarians, therefore, cannot truly be considered Christians because they profess faith in a �Jesus� of their own creation, not the Jesus of the Bible. Like Muslims and Isa.

2. When I say �Scripture�, I am always, always referring to both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, all 66 Books of the Bible. No deviation.

3. You can state all you want that ��Jesus PBUH cannot wash away anyone�s sins because that is not part of God Almighty�s plan�� but that does not make it so. God has already revealed his plan of redemption through the OC and NC, the Scriptures that Muhammad plagiarized. Any sincere research effort will always seek out source documents. Read the Bible, the source document of parts of your Quran. Your statement, ��Jesus PBUH could never have truly said he could forgive anyone.� is not true, Saint. Just because the concept of him forgiving sins does not comport with Islam and the Quran doesn't invalidate biblical Scriptures.

I adhere to the teachings in the Bible; you do the same with the Quran. We're not both right. I'll take the source document and not a work that was plagiarized from it. That is firmly settled for all eternity, and you no doubt feel the same way about the Quran. That's fine; we move on. However, I will draw your attention to:   Mat. 26:28, �This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.� Luke 5:20-24, �20 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, �Friend, your sins are forgiven.� 21 The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, �Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?� 22 Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, �Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? 23 Which is easier: to say, �Your sins are forgiven,� or to say, �Get up and walk�? 24 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.� So he said to the paralyzed man, �I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.�

Mark 2:9-11, �9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, �Your sins are forgiven,� or to say, �Get up, take your mat and walk�? 10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.� So he said to the man, 11 �I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.�   Mat. 8:34-9:1-2, �34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region. 9 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, �Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.�

4. You can believe that Isa was a messenger of God. The Bible, of course, shows Jesus Christ in his fullness as deity clothed in humanity.   To deny, minimize or dismiss anything that Almighty God can do only shows man�s unwillingness or inability to let God be God as he revealed himself through Holy Scripture. The Muslim�s vehemence against the biblical Jesus Christ, Son of God, is baffling. Perhaps it is because Jesus came as a Jew through the line of Isaac and not of Ishmael. That battle still rages today�

5. Works to make one righteous are �gibberish and illogical hokum?� Well, why do you think there is assurance that your good works could be perfect? Again, I ask: how do you know the quality and quantity of your good works are sufficient to cleanse you from sin? Does the Quran or the Sunnah give you a standard to follow? If so, what is it?

6. Read Isaiah 64:6 for yourself. �All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.� If you don�t believe any of the Bible, why quote any of it? I am not following Constantine, Paul and Augustus, but the true Jesus Christ, Son of God, as revealed in the Bible�s Holy Scriptures. Muslims follow Muhammad who taught his followers about a false Jesus, named Isa.

7. I figured it was a typo; just thought I�d mention it so it wouldn�t confuse anyone.

8. The historicity of Jesus is well documented. Unlike other religious figures in the past, the person of Jesus Christ was prophesied approximately 700 years before his birth in Bethlehem (Isa. 7:14). My favorite Book of the Bible is the Gospel of John, who was a contemporary, as well as Jesus� �beloved disciple.� James, who wrote the Book of James, was a brother of Jesus. Hard to get more contemporary than that!

9. Since the Quran states that the Injil is the book of the Christians, it makes a blatantly wrong claim about the basic nature of the Injil. It neither is nor ever was a book given to Jesus. How could this error arise in the mind of Muhammad? He may have heard statements like in the first verse of the Gospel according to Mark, �The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ�, and mistakenly thought that this meant the same as "the Torah of Moses.� However, reading the context shows that it means "this is the beginning of the Gospel about Jesus Christ"; which is the message telling us about the life and teaching of Jesus written by his followers, and not a book given to Jesus himself. Muhammad apparently projected his own experience of receiving revelation of a book and simply assumed that the Injil was the book of Jesus that was held sacred by his followers, and that it must also have been a book given to Jesus (like it is taught that the Quran was given to Muhammad by Allah). However, Muhammad was wrong about this. Religious Jews typically follow the Torah of the Old Covenant. Christians have the New Covenant as well as the Old Covenant. Those books are not the same as the Taurat and the Injil.

10. Muslims �only� reject Jesus as the �begotten son of God?� Then you have another Jesus. The Son of God is the only way to the Father. John 8:24, John 10:30, John 14:10, John 17:22. Yes, indeed, the Muslim Isa is different from the Jew, Jesus Christ. There is no �Christian Jesus�, Saint. He was Jewish. His followers are called Christians because He was the Christ, the Anointed One, Savior.

By the way, where do you get the definition of Isa as �strong willed?� There is an interesting discussion here on the matter: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234991528-what-does-isa-mean/ It appears that one cannot really be didactic about the meaning of Isa, since there is so much ambiguity and differing opinions on the matter.

11. What seems illogical to man is so often the wisdom of God. Why God chose to clothe himself in human flesh rather than save man in some other way is beyond complete comprehension; however, he initiated the shedding of blood to cleanse sins with animal sacrifice in the OC. Jesus� contemporaries fully understood that the Temple was where sin offerings of animals was made. Such animal sacrifices was the foundation of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God (bull in the thicket), who takes away the sin of the world. Again, the so-called logic of man cannot comprehend the wisdom of God. To think otherwise is the height of arrogance. Yes, man is capable of good, great good at times. But he is also capable of evil, and great evil at that. That goes right back to man having obtained the knowledge of good and evil when he disobeyed God back in the Garden and lost fellowship with him. You call it intelligence that helps man differentiate between good and evil. That might work sometimes, Saint, but intelligent men, even being able to discern good and evil, will at some point or another chose the evil. Look into your own heart. Yes, I have done the same and have not liked what I saw at times. Such is the enticement of lust.

12. Not sure about your comment re God not going to a �football match��Okaaay. Indeed, Job (25:4) got it right: ��how can one born of woman be pure?� since we are all born with a sin nature. Only the second (spiritual) birth can deal with the sin nature problem.

13. I see you were unable to refute my comment about Islam only being around for 1400 years, thus certainly not being qualified as the oldest religion. You simply changed the subject to discuss submission to God. Since you brought the subject up, is it possible for a Muslim to submit to the will of God and bring intentional hurt or pain to a fellow human being?

14. Not sure what your point is about Judaism or Christianity. Christianity is found in all the Gospels. It is following and accepting Christ and his teachings. Judaism is specifically found in the Bible at Acts 2:11, Acts 6:5, Acts 13:43, Galatians 1:13, and Galatians 1:14.
   
Peace,
BaruchHaba

Edited by BaruchHaba - 10 December 2015 at 5:34am