Does God beget ?

Israfil wrote: Jocko, you have not provided proof for your defense nor was your presentation of the Bible [in further defense] adequate enough. You have provided substantial hypothesis yet, none of them in this forum were validated. .... You would rather for me to "leave it up to the Bible" rather than discuss this logically.

Israfil,

I have to say that Jocko has done an excellent job at presenting the Christian faith. To us the Bible is God's unique revelation. You seem to be insisting that he "prove" things from your point of view, according to your concept; that if he can't speak in your terms, from your frame of reference, then what he says is inadequate.

This is the interfaith dialog forum. Obviously each of us has a different starting point for our faith. This makes interfaith dialog difficult. We all understand that. But we don't insist that you take our frame of reference to explain Islam. I think it is unfair of you to insist that Jocko take yours to present his faith.

I commend brother Jocko and pray that the Lord accepts his presentation, and that it bears fruit to His glory.

Israfil wrote: Explain how Jesus in the Trinity is not the subordinate creature of God. -Because Jesus has limited qualities as human how, in this form and in his nature can this relationship be equal?

We have explained how the Son of God existed in eternity past in the Godhead in equality with the Father, and how He willingly stepped into time to mingle Himself with His creature man via incarnation. It seems that your point of view is that the Son didn't exist before the incarnation of Jesus. We have repeatedly explained otherwise. The Triune God in His essence has no hierarchy, no first, second or third. God in His economy, His operation, took certain steps according to His council. The steps He took in His economy, including His incarnation, did not obliterate His essence. What He IS in eternity could not be altered by what he DID in time.

Like I posted before:

We need to see the Son in His essence verses the Son in His economy. In His essence, His state of being, He is equal with the Father. In His economy, His operation, He became subordinate to execute the Father�s plan. Let�s look at Phil 2 again with some notations in brackets.

Christ Jesus, who, existing [essence] in the form of God, did not consider being equal [essence] with God a treasure to be grasped, but emptied Himself [economy], taking the form of a slave [economy], becoming in the likeness of men [economy]; and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself [economy], becoming obedient [economy] even unto death, and that the death of a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow ... and every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2:5b-11)

God's foreknowledge foresaw the rebellion of the angels and the failure of man. The angels and man would both violate the principal of submission to authority, so the Son Himself had to create submission. In the Godhead there is equality, yet there was a harmonious decision that authority would be established first within the Godhead. From that time on, there was a distinction in operation of the Father and the Son. One day the Son willingly emptied Himself to become a created man as the representation of submission to authority. The Lord Jesus remained submissive even in multiple degrees of suffering. Therefore, the Father exalted Him back into the Godhead as a Man.

The limitations of Jesus were entirely voluntary. He is a compound being, having both divinity and humanity. While living on earth, in His divinity He had no limitations. In His humanity He chose to live the model human life within the temporal human confines. At any time as a man, He could have invoked His divinity, abandoned all limitations, and returned to the Godhead. But He chose to be the only One to live a perfect human life. If He had not, He would still be God in the Godhead, but there would not be man on the throne of God, and His redemption would be lost. We would be lost. Since He overcame Satan as a man, and was 100% obedient to God as a man, He as a man was exalted to the throne of God. Now there is a man on the throne of God. Stephen (among others) was privileged to see Him there.

So perhaps you don't like or don't agree with or don't understand this explanation, but I think it is a fair answer to your question. It may not fit into human logic, but it's no stretch for me to believe that God transcends my logic. God is unlimited; my logic is extremely limited. I cannot understand how God always existed, how He had no beginning, but I believe it because His Word tells me so. So if the infinite God is Triune, I can believe that just as easily. If God decided to become a man, I can believe that too.

Edited by JasperStone

 

 What?? Do you mean the day of Judgement??

minuteman wrote:    What?? Do you mean the day of Judgement??

who are you speaking to?