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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Points: 1647 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2016 at 10:38pm
Dear bro Caringheart, Please see if you could specifically answer this question that I asked and also clarified to bro airmano through his argument.

Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

Quote Ahmad Joya:
why it took centuries for the 'Holy Spirit' to canonize the Bible and not bothered to preserve the Original?

I think you ask the right question but on wrong premises:

If Moses, Abraham, Jesus and so on had been real prophets, then indeed, why didn't God preserve their prophecy ?
Muslims usually explain this dilemma by stating that their message has been targeted to the Jews (only).
But honestly, don't you consider the idea that God addresses himself to an arbitrary subgroup - the Jews and may be the Christians- (implying that the others don't even have to listen(!)) as highly implausible?
Airmano
IMHO, the earlier messages of God were through numerous Prophets but only time limited at different occasions, for specific people in different parts of the world. As opposed to the concept of transmission of God's message through Angel Gabriel (commonly known as holy spirit) to the very selected and chosen people called 'Prophets', there is no concept of 'Holy Ghost' as a godhead talking to ordinary people for their faith in their day to day affairs as is the case, I understood, in Christianity. Thus, it is for this background that I asked my Christian brothers about this role of 'Holy Ghost' and yet missing out its important task of preserving the Gospel.
Best regards


Edited by AhmadJoyia - 06 January 2016 at 10:42pm
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airmano View Drop Down
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Points: 884 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2016 at 12:59pm
Quote Ahmad Joya
IMHO, the earlier messages of God were through numerous Prophets but only time limited at different occasions, for specific people in different parts of the world.
You confirm what I suspected, but that doesn't answer my question.
First: "Different parts of the world ?" No! The Aztecs, the Sioux, the Eskimos, the Zulus and the Japanese nor the Celts did ever hear of Mohamed, Abraham or Jesus - at least before Christianity spread around the world. Obviously God must have had a faible for the middle east and didn't care too much about the rest of our world.

So again: Can you imagine that God sends a message to the Jews (only!), which is of no concern to the rest of the world ?
-----------------------------------------------------

Now to the "Holy Ghost" and Angels: It won't surprise you when I consider both as fairy tales.
What surprises me however, is the stubbornness Muslims develop when it comes to trinity. Not that I believe in it either, but that three different entities can be the facets of the same object/being is known since Apollonius of Perga.
To imagine the word "son" in "son of God" outside its biological context requires less phantasy than imagining a "donkey like animal" as a shuttle to heaven(s).



Airmano


Edited by airmano - 07 January 2016 at 1:06pm
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Points: 2991 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2016 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:


First: "Different parts of the world ?" No! The Aztecs, the Sioux, the Eskimos, the Zulus and the Japanese nor the Celts did ever hear of Mohamed, Abraham or Jesus - at least before Christianity spread around the world. ...

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The Word of Yshwe (known as Jesus), in the book of Matthew, chapter 24

All should read and understand.

asalaam and blessings,

CAringheart



Edited by Caringheart - 07 January 2016 at 10:28pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Points: 1647 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2016 at 7:35am
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

Quote Ahmad Joya
IMHO, the earlier messages of God were through numerous Prophets but only time limited at different occasions, for specific people in different parts of the world.
You confirm what I suspected, but that doesn't answer my question.
First: "Different parts of the world ?" No! The Aztecs, the Sioux, the Eskimos, the Zulus and the Japanese nor the Celts did ever hear of Mohamed, Abraham or Jesus - at least before Christianity spread around the world. Obviously God must have had a faible for the middle east and didn't care too much about the rest of our world. So again: Can you imagine that God sends a message to the Jews (only!), which is of no concern to the rest of the world ?
That is not a whole comprehension about Islam. While Muslims do believe there could have been thousands of Prophet sent by Allah to the mankind, only few are mentioned in the Quran. IMHO, this is because the stories of these Prophets are relative to the context of the Audiences of Quran i.e the Arabs. Had the last Prophet been sent to China or elsewhere on the earth, people like you might have objected the same argument from that perspective. Remember, though the God is infinite but the Prophet and his surrounding communities were only a finite human beings bound by time and space dimensions.
-----------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:


Now to the "Holy Ghost" and Angels: It won't surprise you when I consider both as fairy tales.
Of course not.
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:


What surprises me however, is the stubbornness Muslims develop when it comes to trinity. Not that I believe in it either, but that three different entities can be the facets of the same object/being is known since Apollonius of Perga.
To imagine the word "son" in "son of God" outside its biological context requires less phantasy than imagining a "donkey like animal" as a shuttle to heaven(s).
Airmano
Thank you bro for Christianising your opinion about Trinity, and I really appreciate your concern to patch up between the two religions. But before I give my opinion on your view, I would like you to get this 'facets of the same object' concept of 'Oneness of God' approved from my 'Declared' Christian brothers, for which they have to give up the idea of Jesus as the literal begotten son of God. I hope and wish that you would be successful in your proposition to them. May peace be upon you. Best regards. On a very and very cursory note the concept of 'donkey like animal' as a shuttle to heaven(s) is never a doctrinal issue among Muslims.

Edited by AhmadJoyia - 08 January 2016 at 7:38am
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BaruchHaba View Drop Down
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Points: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2016 at 8:13am
Ahmad Joyia:
"why it took centuries for the 'Holy Spirit' to canonize the Bible and not bothered to preserve the Original? ...Angel Gabriel (commonly known as holy spirit..."

----------

We've gotten far afield of this thread's very important topic on original sin, but I'd like to address the two above erroneous statements made by Ahmad. First, the canonization of the Holy Scriptures was not done easily or by one man, but was a process undertaken by men knowledgeable in the Holy Scriptures. Caringheart has already done a good job in giving you a source to study and in his comparison to Quranic Hadiths. I will simply give you another source you can read for yourself, as there truly is not an easy or short answer to the question of Bible canon: http://www.greek-language.com/bible/palmer/03literaryhistory.html

Second, where do you get the idea that the Angel Gabriel was "commonly known as holy spirit"? Did you get that from one of the cults (of which there are many)? Such idea is neither Catholic nor Protestant dictum. Gabriel is an angel messenger of God, perhaps the Chief Messenger, whereas the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the One True God.

Edited by BaruchHaba - 08 January 2016 at 8:22am
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airmano View Drop Down
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Points: 884 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2016 at 1:17pm
Quote Ahmad:
I would like you to get this 'facets of the same object' concept of 'Oneness of God' approved from my 'Declared' Christian brothers, for which they have to give up the idea of Jesus as the literal begotten son of God. I hope and wish that you would be successful in your proposition to them. May peace be upon you.

Caringheart & Tg any comment on that ?


Airmano
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Points: 2991 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2016 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

  I would like you to get this 'facets of the same object' concept of 'Oneness of God' approved from my 'Declared' Christian brothers, for which they have to give up the idea of Jesus as the literal begotten son of God. ...

Greetings AhmadJoyia,

A question...
What explanation, or reason then, is there for the virgin birth?
Why the need of a virgin birth?
For me the answer is easily clear.

asalaam and blessings,
CAringheart

If Yshwe was an ordinary prophet, He would have been conceived in the ordinary way.  Point in fact is that He was not ordinary at all, but unique... Divinely conceived and part of the Divine.  It is why Mary is so revered.  She brought into the world the Divine.


Edited by Caringheart - 08 January 2016 at 1:19pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Points: 1647 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2016 at 8:08pm
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:



Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

� I would like you to get this 'facets of the same object' concept of 'Oneness of God' approved from my 'Declared' Christian brothers, for which they have to give up the idea of Jesus as the literal begotten son of God. ...
Greetings AhmadJoyia,A question...What explanation, or reason then, is there for the virgin birth?Why the need of a virgin birth?For me the answer is easily clear.asalaam and blessings,CAringheartIf Yshwe was an ordinary prophet, He would have been conceived in the ordinary way.� Point in fact is that He was not ordinary at all, but unique... Divinely conceived and part of the Divine.� It is why Mary is so revered.� She brought into the world the Divine.
Thanks for not answering the proposition of bro airmano. Anyhow, how would you explain where technically the 'virgin birth' concept is opposite to 'literal begotten son'. Choose which one suits your hypothesis. But not both. Don't you think?
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