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Akhe Abdullah 
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Male Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1252 |
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 Posted: 18 July 2009 at 8:44am |
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Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 18 July 2009 at 8:44am |
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Akhe Abdullah
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Posted: 18 July 2009 at 9:32am |
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martha
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Posted: 18 July 2009 at 12:03pm |
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THankyou brother
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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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Akhe Abdullah
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Posted: 18 July 2009 at 2:40pm |
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Salams, Martha.ALHamduillah!La moshkelah(no problem!)May Allah Bless you.
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Andalus
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Posted: 19 July 2009 at 12:34am |
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I would say that is not only inaccruate but a complete misunderstanding of what the hadith are and a sophmoric approach to the NT.
1) Unfortunately I am having to over simplify the science of hadith which I am no scholar of. But the foundation of hadith is "isnaad". A scholar once said (the teacher of Imam Al Bukhari in fact if my memory is correct) that "The isnaad is from the deen, were it not for the isnaad, whosoever willed could say whatever he wished." This system has given us "confidence" in the information.
2) The NT accounts have no isnaad. In fact, there was no methodology in figuring out who said what, what was fact, what was fiction, the reliability of those who told stories, nor was there any method for transmitting the info orally or written. With this in mind, you have four accounts that began as oral accounts that developed from different areas (regions) with differing authers who wished to put accross their point of view which also developed in different time periods. To say that all four accounts are really four perspectives like four different witnesses to an event is complete rubbish. These stories were influenced by their time periods, their geographical location, and the point of view their tellers and later their copiests wanted to convey. Furthermore, the "proto-orthodox" (the group whose theological ideologies modern christians inherited their knowledge from) had no solid method for discerning which accounts were true and which were false. Keep in mind that there were many different accounts floating around in differing regoins. They simply chose based upon their theological views.
3) As the stories in the NT devleoped, it is obvious to see that Christology also grew with a higher Christology as time developed. These are not four witnesses to the same event, these are four unique stories with unique perspectives. I believe the writers intentions have been lost in the need of Christians to force harmonizations onto them which does nothing but create a fifth gospel.
I am not saying that nothing accurate exists, I am saying that historical accuracy was not on the minds of those who formed your cannon (which is why the christian creeds do not force one to declare that the NT is the inspired word of God), and that we have no way of actually knowing what is truth and what is theological truth (the two are not necessarily the same things)
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
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Natassia
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Joined: 16 July 2009 Status: Offline Points: 177 |
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Posted: 19 July 2009 at 7:44pm |
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1) And isnads have been forged before. Besides, Bukhari did not compile and write down his collection until about 200 years after the actual events in question. The hadith were passed along orally by devoted followers of Muhammad. The gospels were passed along orally by devoted followers of Jesus and written down within the 1st century AD. The epistles were first written down...never orally passed along.
2) Actually, it is likely that the writers of the gospels relied on a shared primary source for many of Christ's "sayings". The same source was likely relied upon for the Coptic Gospel of Thomas and probably even the Didache. Just as the hadith, sirah, and Quran itself could easily have been influenced by the biases of Muslims, so the gospels could easily have been influenced by the biases of Christians. But that's okay. That's how you find out the true BELIEFS of the earliest followers...because that's what really matters. The epistles of Paul are actually the EARLIEST Christian theological writings that we have (like Romans and Galatians). They predate the gospels by about 15-20 years. You want to understand Islam--read the Quran. You want to understand Christianity--read the epistles of Paul--the ones even the most liberal of scholars agree were written by him.
3) You can argue that with the gospels as well as with the Gnostic and apocryphal writings. You can't argue that with the epistles. There is no need to force harmonizations on the gospels unless you believe they are all the verbatim words of God. None of the authors of the gospels claimed to have been recording the verbatim words of God. So, it is likely a conservative, fundamental (and probably Protestant) doctrine to believe the scriptures are 100% God's spoken word. This is not something supported by the scriptures themselves.
4) The authors of the gospels were not historians. They weren't concerned with presenting a history text book for readers 2000 years in the future. Their goal was to combat the gnostic heresies going around as well as to spread the Good News about Jesus Christ. The theology of the gospel is the same throughout the gospels and epistles, regardless of contradictions between the details of events: "Repent and believe in the salvation given by God though the Messiah Jesus of Nazareth." |
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believer
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Posted: 21 July 2009 at 5:53am |
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Natassias - "They predate the gospels by about 15-20 years." Have you noticed though that Paul was referencing the Scripture [Gospel] in his Epistles.
1 Corinthians 15 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. |
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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
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Natassia
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Posted: 21 July 2009 at 7:01am |
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I think perhaps you should figure out what the GOSPEL itself is. The gospel was spread via word-of-mouth. Paul's letters were written to churches who had already heard and accepted the gospel. His letters predate the written gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And care to explain what "the Scriptures" exactly are in those verses you've quoted? The Bible didn't exist yet. The four gospels hadn't been written yet. The Tanakh/Old Testament canon had not been firmly established yet. I prefer not to ASSUME things. |
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martha wrote: