Trinity

Rehmat wrote: Here is my question to Christian posters (!) Do you believe that Jesus is divine son of God? Do you believe in Virgin birth and resurrection? And save me from the padre's respons - "Unless you repent, as it were, and believe the Gospel so to speak, you will be damned.' Because that.s the basic modern Christian problem - How Jesus so uniquely significant to allow the existence of Church, if he should not be divine?

what?

be more clear

Rehmat wrote: Here is my question to Christian posters (!) Do you believe that Jesus is divine son of God? Do you believe in Virgin birth and resurrection?

Why ask that when you know they do.

Angel said:

"Isn't this a trinity ?"

From the Muslim perspective on Christian theology and the Christian understanding of trinitarian philosophy--yes this is so. But from the Muslim perspective regarding the unity of God the trinity violates the unity within the person of God because the essence as well as the attributes as well as the person of God is not divided, even symbolically as two other persons. For example the 'Holy Spirit' in Islam is not apart of the essence of God, because the Holy Spirit in Islam is that of the Angel Gabriel. The so-called "Spirit" or "Messenger" in the Qur'an appears to be interchangeable based on their application between both Angels, and Prophets i.e. calling an Angel "a messenger" and calling Muhammad "the messenger."

Also, obviously in Islam God does not have/need a son because we believe that to have a son to redeem the world is a "need" to fulfill a prophecy for God and God (praise be the Creator) does not need anyone. Hence the rejection of the persons the trinity exclaims are unified within God, this is of course refers to the Muslim understanding.

Yesha said:

"well obviously.  But what I'm trying to figure out is how you can say that logically it is impossible for god's person to be analagous to Body, Soul, and Spirit.  The persons of the trinity are all of divine essence.  They are also inseperable, like members of a divine body."

Ok Yesha, hopefully this point can be much more clearer than the last one I posted for you. In the following are the logical reasons why God is not associated with Body, Spirit and Soul based on the following:

1. God being incorepereal is not associated with "body" because by doing so, nullifies the understanding based on doctrinal text that God is incorpereal and is not a physical being. Also, a being that is infinite does does not have physical form because to say, God has a physical body or is to occupy a body means that God is occupied by space when in the infinity principle that is quite the opposite. If we are to say that God is "Body" based on metaphorical terms such as "the universe is encompassed by the body of God only means to say that the universe is encompassed by the essence of God and of his divine presence. But in such translations we shouldn't use the term "body" because our first understanding is that a "body" is a physical being/object that occupies space and any object that occpies space being physically living or non-living is occupied by time as well.

2. God is not "a soul" in the sense of humans having a soul because God not being created nor apart of anything of this universe is not actuated through creation but is the one who creates the worlds by his will. Though the soul or "naf" is a term that is both literal and metaphorical in the Qur'an based on their application in the Islamic understanding of a soul it is never applied to God. Usually the understanding of the soul is, is the absolute being of each individual person and their personality. However the soul being without form, it is understood that the soul is immaterial. But it doesn't mean that because its immaterial that its like God who is incorpereal. Even though they are the same the theological understanding is that the soul is immaterial in nature but is also created as well.

3. The definition of Spirit is usually metaphorical applying in both the Bible and Qur'an as the essence of God. Such as "And the Spirit of God hovered over the waters." But Spirit can also refer to a type of of an emotional state such as courage, or bravery. When applied to God we can only apply such a term as the essence of God but not as an essential of God. If it is an essential of God (like the trinitarian principle shows) then it is saying that apart of the essence of God is the spirit. This type of application is analogous to a Father whose son is essential to what it is to become a Father. This is an untrue statement because any male with a  functioning reproductive system can have a child, but 'fatherhood' comes from mutual parental responsibility not child-bearing. So in this example we should say that the son is not essential to Fatherhood, whereas fatherhood becomes a learned trait of resposibility.

In this long explanation of mine (again!) this shows our rejection to the trinitarian logic as it imposes additional qualities upon an infinite and unified being. Though if we tangle with saying these are attributes we still come to the same problem.

Israfil wrote: The Christian Poser says: "maybe you should visit america sometime...you will get use to getting disrespected...you grow stronger from it i can say the very same thing about screen names that say...true faith, or right religion...do i get desrespected, no." This is a very ignorant statement you made. First off, I am from America I was born and raised in California and have degrees in American-Academic Institutions. Funny how you "ASSumed" (notice the first three letters I captialized on how you sounded) I was not from America. Second, by being African-American ( not making this a racial debate) I know about being disrespected. Also, it is quite disrespectful and inappropriate and ignorant to use a screen name in which you have no knowledge of. If you are aware of Islamic belief system you'd know that Islam rejects Christianity on the concept of this discussion which is the trinity. Muslism as qell as the Quranic doctrine do not believe in the Trinity principle and is strict on Allah's Oneness, hence the Tawhid. However noble your attemt in reconciling Islam and Christianity I have to say you can do a much better job by changing your name and coming forth as who you are because many Christians in mainstream Christianity reject Tawhid as such a word relates to Islam which rejects the concept of God having a Son....Please reconsider.

reconsider?  no.

 that is like me asking you to "please reconsider [edited by moderator]"

no simply you will not...and i simply will not

tawhid means...the unity of God...

the unity of god

the unity of god (in arabic language)...what if i had my name "unity_of_god" in english? would you still feel the same about my name? or are you offended just because it is in your "holy" language?

so what if i have that name as a christian?....as if christians do not believe in tawhid...please my friend...

by you claiming the sole trueness of the word and concept "tawhid" is to disregard that christians believe in tawhid as well..and we do.

well we beleive in tawhid...moreso...as much as the ummah - it is the ummah that have been forced to believe through years and decades and centuries of ignorant and decieving lies that chrstians believe in "three gods" that have somehow made you so offensive when a christian calls himself as a reprisentative of "tawhid" ....it is unfortunate that you have been dupped in your book and your muslim classes that christians believe that ther are 3 gods when christians have not and will never believe that....only one God

i have been asked to changed my name 5 times and ive changed it 4 because you muslims are to heartbroken to have a non muslim have a name that is disagreeable...please...i have been to over 6 christian forums and not once have i seen a christian try sooooo hard to get a muslim to change his or her name...moreover....more hatred/anger/oppression/slander/bigotted pride/lack of humbleness of God...has been spit out by your fellow muslim than i have EVER heard from a christian....does your faith tell you to hate the christian? a fellow believer of "the book"?  (by the way...which "book" does your prophet talk about when he says that??? what book when he says "people of the book"....give me that name of that book...where can i find it? where is it? why isnt it published? why when i go to the local mosque and i aske for this mysterious "book" they do not have it?? )

the name stays...and my faith in the one god remains stronger through christ my lord...

and my attempt in trying to reconcile christianity and islam?????? huh...who is the one ASSuming now? there is no way they can be reconciled my muslim friend...there is but one truth...there is only one way  to the father and that is through the son...my belief is founded in that...therefore...why would i even try to reconcile the two when my bible (any translation, and version if you want to get picky) says that there is no way of reconcilation from true believers and the decieved...nice try ....

and please...you did make it a racial debate....at least you can call your racial makeup one race...i am mixed of more than 4 races therefore i (unlike you) cannot hold claim to just one...and they are not all white ..more than half is asian and mediteranian...so dont play the race card cuz i get marginal love from any side of my multi racial brothers and sisters - you...you get full love from all blacks...cuz you are a purebread...hence...at least you are accepted wherever you go...

disrespectful, inappropriate and ignorant because of my name...why? i believe tawhid and i believe the truness of tawhid is found in the christian faith...you dont believe that....so? welcome to disagreement....what will it do for you if i change my name? will it make you sleep better at night?

i am an infedel to you...but i am love by my God in heaven who took away my sins...all praises to my lord the one God who sent his son and upon recieving his salvation via his blood  was granted upon me his holy spirit to discern the spiritual battles that inchalla and allah's guidence i remain strong willed in his perfect wisdom and justice.

and why in shariah law is the christian treated as lesser human simply because he does not believe in your prophet? what do you mean? you ask?   - jizya...the most embarrassing thing i have ever heard of from another religion FORCING their religion on nonbelievers....i thought there was no compulsion in you religion...guess not

see...my point to come here on a muslim forum proclaiming my faith and asking these uneasy questions...is that i have been here before when the old forums were in use...and i have witnessed the christian bashing...disrespect and un-honest lies that have been spit out about my faith...but once someone like me who comes along to reveal the unfairness and hostility that has been forced upon the church...i am called ignorant, disresptectful and innapropriate....

well please...look in the mirror....

allahu akbar, tawhid