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Mishmish View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2006 at 2:29pm

No, I guess it wasn't Moab's fault. Yet, the lineage of the Messiah was foretold, so Lot's incest would hardly have been a surprise to God. Would it? And, if you think about it, that would have put Lot and his daughters above God's law because they committed fornication. Yet they were blessed. Actually, in the Bible many of God's Messengers and Prophets commit sins against God's Laws.....

Sending your daughter-in-law to trick a man into a situation where he must marry her is sort of well, selling her, isn't it? For 6 measures of barley....



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2006 at 2:57pm

I have another question since we're on the topic of fault.

Christians believe that Adam's sin was so great that all children are born into sin. Yet, you believe that Lot's sin was not that bad because his incestuous child is actually an ancestor to God in human form.

If it is not Moab's fault that he was born of incest, then how can it be my fault that Adam ate from the tree of knowledge?

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2006 at 3:07am
Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

No, I guess it wasn't Moab's fault. Yet, the lineage of the Messiah was foretold, so Lot's incest would hardly have been a surprise to God. Would it?

no indeed, nothing is a surprise to God

And, if you think about it, that would have put Lot and his daughters above God's law because they committed fornication. Yet they were blessed.

to say they were blessed is stretching a point to say the least.  the last we read of them in the holy scriptures, they were living in a cave, and not according to the will of God.  we do not know if they ever got their act together, with regard to God

 Actually, in the Bible many of God's Messengers and Prophets commit sins against God's Laws.....

indeed - "for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" - romans 3: 23.  even according to the quran, adam sinned.  he disobeyed allah, and i seem to remember he also committed the sin of shirk

Sending your daughter-in-law to trick a man into a situation where he must marry her is sort of well, selling her, isn't it? For 6 measures of barley....

no it was not a trick.  indeed boaz could have refused the request.  we read in the book of ruth, that there was a kinsman even closer to naomi than boaz.  so that the right of redemption was actually his in the first instance.  and boaz makes clear to ruth that he will first have to offer this other kinsman the chance to marry ruth.  he refused, leaving the way clear for boaz

for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2006 at 3:19am
Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

I have another question since we're on the topic of fault.

Christians believe that Adam's sin was so great that all children are born into sin. Yet, you believe that Lot's sin was not that bad because his incestuous child is actually an ancestor to God in human form.

no, lots sin was very grievous.  he fell into drunkeness, and his daughters exploited the situation.  his incestuous child moab was not an ancestor of Christ, ruth was an ancestor of Christ

If it is not Moab's fault that he was born of incest, then how can it be my fault that Adam ate from the tree of knowledge?

well of course it is not your fault.  you do not bear adams guilt, you bear your own.  what is called original sin simply means we are born with a tendency to sin, and it is proved by the fact that everyone sins

for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:47am

Let's face it there are differences of opinion. I think it stems from the western notion that values the individual over the collective. And the more non-western one that does not.  When I was visiting Pakistan a dear friend said sure you can do x, y and z, it is your choice just not out in the streets in public. No you cannot compel people to completely stop x, y and z. But there is the notion that some things are not for public domain.  Sometimes strong rules are needed to place the value of group / community over the individual. It is a very different way of looking at people.  

Freddie: you can pick and choose individual examples of different acts or beliefs.  In a sense this clash is more pronounced because the media / western governments want to continue to promote Islam as the �enemy�, and Moslems as �different.� I am not sure beside simply to be a pain why anyone would share in this effort. The world is full of different people. My friend�s father was murdered here in DC. No one mentioned the religious beliefs of the people involved.  This only happens to Moslems. All people need to make an effort to not buy into this behavior. It helps no one.

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2006 at 11:04am

Please give me any proof that Adam committed shirk....

Ruth was a Moabite, a descendent of Moab, and an ancestor to King David a direct link to Jesus.

According to Romans we all bear Adam's sin.....

5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned�

5:13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 4:49am
Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

Please give me any proof that Adam committed shirk....

no, i cant for the moment, its just i thought i read it somewhere.  if it is not true, then its not true

Ruth was a Moabite, a descendent of Moab, and an ancestor to King David a direct link to Jesus.

i dont know where youre going with this.  if youre saying that ruth was not fit to be an ancestor of the Lord because of the grievous sin of her forefather lot and his daughters, then this is just not logical.  it would mean that noone was fit for this, because everybody is a sinner, one way or the other.  ruth was a sinner, like everyone, because she was born into the fallen state brought about by adams sin in the garden, not because of lots sin. 

the quran also confirms this, albeit obliquely.  2:36, 7:24 confirm that adam was expelled from the garden because of sin, failure, disobedience, call it what you may.  if his descendants had been born totally untainted by his failure, then they should be admitted back to the garden.  but noone has been allowed back since he and eve were put out, because they are not fit to be there, instead they are to live in this scene of sin and death, with all its attendant miseries.  when adam fell, the whole of humanity fell, as is clear from the passage from the epistle to the romans you quote from

According to Romans we all bear Adam's sin.....

5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned�

5:13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

i dont know what translation this is.  it is correct, but i find the wording of v.14 misleading.  no, we do not bear adams sin.  we bear our own sin, but we sin because of our fallen state brought about by adams sin.  this is an important distinction.  the passage makes clear that death is the result of sin, confirming ezekiel 18: 4 "the soul that sinneth, it shall die".  romans 5: 12, which you quoted makes it clear that all die because all sinso each bears his own sin, unless we are saved, in which case we come into the good of 1 peter 2: 24 - "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree..."

for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 11:24am

New International Translation, I believe. They all say the same thing, with little tweaks here or there, but they all say that by one man's sin all men were made sinners.....

In Islam, Adam being sent from the Garden to earth was his only punishment, and Allah forgave him.

In all of my many years as a Christian I was taught that men are imperfect because of Adam's sin.  That Jesus had to be sacrificed to atone for this sin that we are all born into, and that is why mankind can only seek salvation through Jesus. Why else are babies baptised? They have certainly committed no sin other than birth.

If this is wrong, then I know a heck of a lot of Christians who are completely misguided. It's right here in black and white from the Bible. One man made us sinners, one man took the sin away. Everyone in between actually don't have much to do or say about it, I guess....

Here is King James:

5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Standard English Version:

5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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