Introducing Islam To non-Muslims

StephenC wrote: Andulas "1) Your question assumes that a required explanation of clarification implies an imperfection in the revelation. Please back this assumption up. I will edit your replies if you attempt your usual chicanery. Do not stray from this thread and its point." You require more of me than you do of yourself.  But so be it. So we are on the same page, let us establish the definition of "Perfect" 1. conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman. 2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement: There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect. 3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose: a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes. 4. entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings: a perfect apple; the perfect crime. 5. accurate, exact, or correct in every detail: a perfect copy. 6. thorough; complete; utter: perfect strangers. 7. pure or unmixed: perfect yellow. 8. unqualified; absolute: He has perfect control over his followers. 9. expert; accomplished; proficient. 10. unmitigated; out-and-out; of an extreme degree: He made a perfect fool of himself. 11. Botany. a. having all parts or members present. b. monoclinous. 12. Grammar. a. noting an action or state brought to a close prior to some temporal point of reference, in contrast to imperfect or incomplete action. b. designating a tense or other verb formation or construction with such meaning. 13. Music. a. applied to the consonances of unison, octave, and fifth, as distinguished from those of the third and sixth, which are called imperfect. b. applied to the intervals, harmonic or melodic, of an octave, fifth, and fourth in their normal form, as opposed to augmented and diminished. 14. Mathematics. (of a set) equal to its set of accumulation points. 15. Obsolete. assured or certain. �noun Grammar 16. the perfect tense. 17. a verb form or construction in the perfect tense. Compare future perfect, pluperfect, present perfect. �verb (used with object) 18. to bring to completion; finish. 19. to bring to perfection; make flawless or faultless. 20. to bring nearer to perfection; improve. 21. to make fully skilled. 22. Printing. to print the reverse of (a printed sheet).

This is great theatrics, but it is, essentially, "handwaving" your way to restate what you originally stated. This list of defintions all differ, and you have not applied your "cut and paste" list to your argument to make your conclusion work. In essence, you are simply back to your silly games.

In the end, we still do not know anything about how you come to your conclusion.

What is the purpose of the Quran?

guidance

Is it to provide a written text of the "revelations" of Muhammad?

The Quran is a revelation from Gd as given by Prophet Muhammad (saw), not a bound book. The writing of the Quran is another way to preserve and convey it, not the primary.

If it is perfect, then there is no need for anything else.

You asserted this before, and your juvenile list of definitions do not make this work.

You posited, "if it is perfect" as a condition that cannot be fulfilled if there is a need for anything else. This is logically unsound, and it is factually unsound. Care to reword or rethink this?

No "clarifications"  No editing.  No additions.  No subtractions.

yes, you have asserted this before. And it still makes little sense as it did when you first repeated this new mantra of yours.

Please provide something more than a list of definitions. Handwaving is really in poor fashion.

The Quran was not edited.

Men did not subtract from it.

Clarifiaction is from the imperfectness of man, not the imperfectness of revelation.

We are not born know Arabic, or the context of the historical setting, or the Sunnah. To say that if something is explained implies it is imperfect is simply a non sequitur.

Something is explained because as humans we must make effort to learn. The role of the Prophet went beyond being a set of vocal chords. He was given revelation not part of the Quran.

Your crude and ignorant statement would imply that Gd should just put the revelation in all of our heads, so that we are born with it, and we can skip an intermediary.

But pro-Islamic historical facts tell us that there are clarifications, editing, additions, and subtractions.

Another generalization, and unstated implication. 

Andalus wrote: StephenC wrote: Andulas "You have already been warned about making claims without evidence or backing them up. Please back up your remarks." Where is the evidence for your LIST? This is an Islamic forum. I am not required to provide evidence for every single point about my religion that I discuss. If this forum was about your mother, or parents, I would be an idiot to expect you to provide evidence that they were really your paretns everytime you discussed them. If you want to discuss Islam, and if you make a claim against it, or a claim that runs contrary to our beliefs, then you are required to back it up. It is that simple, and it is not beyond being reasonable.

Is that your way of saying that there is no proof?

I have posted claims with cites from this very website (www.islamicity.com).  Not from any anti-islamic site.

I will restate my claims.

The only publicly known oldest copy of the Quran was written 200-300 years after the death of Muhammad.  "This eighth century manuscript from Mecca or Medina is one of the two oldest known existing copies of the Quran." History of Islam www.islamicity.com

Do you dispute this?

Muhammad preached to slaves and the poor.  History of Islam www.islamicity.com Do you dispute this?

The Quran was not compiled until years after the death of Muhammad.  It was commissioned by Uthman who formed a committee to sort out what would and would not be in the Quran. 

"Of much greater importance to Islam, however, was 'Uthman's compilation of the text of the Quran as revealed to the Prophet. Realizing that the original message from God might be inadvertently distorted by textual variants, he appointed a committee to collect the canonical verses and destroy the variant recensions."

"With great difficulty, the task was carried out and the first complete manuscript compiled from "bits of parchment, thin white stones - ostracae - leafless palm branches, and the memories of men."

Both from History of Islam www.islamicity.com 

Now what of my claims are not true?  I am not asking what is the relevance.  Just what is not true.

*text deleted: you have been warned about making charges without evidence. In this instance, you have avoided the information that does not work for you, and you have twisted the history of the Quran with information that does work for you in order to make an inaccurate charge. 

Should not a person be fully informed of Islam so they can make educated decisions?

Andulas

guidance

Then why is it not complete enough that it does not need "clarification" or explanation?

Andulas

"The Quran was not edited."

Then why does Islamicity.com state:

"Of much greater importance to Islam, however, was 'Uthman's compilation of the text of the Quran as revealed to the Prophet. Realizing that the original message from God might be inadvertently distorted by textual variants, he appointed a committee to collect the canonical verses and destroy the variant recensions."

This sure sounds to me like the definition of "edit."  What is YOUR definition of "edit?"