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AhmadJoyia ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
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Come on bro Fredi, where has your scholarly traits gone? By not posting the complete references to your evidence, is there any value to them? By your standards, certainly only Bible can be accepted through this way but not for us. Moreover, who is the translator of the Arabic text since I don't know much about Arabic except few words that are commonly known to almost all muslims. Among these commonly known words, the very first sentence in the arabic script of the proposed evidence, are clearly not the same as those in the English translation. Either there is sometime more to it or some thing missing from it. Hence the evidence is not reliable untill these ambiguities are resolved. Only then, after the ambuigities are resolved beyond doubt, would be the time that I shall provide you the adequate response on the contents of the proposed letter. On the issue of apostasy, presentation by numerous ahadith is a weak argument, that I already mentioned, cuasing a difference of opinion among the scholars. That is the cause of widespread misconception. Nevertheless, the primary source of authority in Islamic Jurisprudence is the Quran. Sunnah or any other sources are only complimentary to it. No ahadith or any other source can superceed Quran. Only in the absence from the Quran, that sunnah has to be consulted. For some matters, where both the sources are silent, the other resources must be applied in order to bring the settlement of the issue in perfect conformity of general principles of the above two mentioned sources. With this principle in view, I don't think, any evidence from Ahadith literature would work simply becuase of abundance of evidence already contained in the Quran on the issue of apostasy. |
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ak_m_f ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 October 2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3272 |
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Prophet sent letters:
to overcome the tyranny of the rulers of other countries who prevented their subjects from listening to the call of Islam. The Muslims had (by Almighty Allah's order) to make Islam known to the people of other countries, but the tyrant rulers would not allow their subjects to listen to the word of Islam and the call of the Qur'an. [This is the custom of tyrants from the dawn of history: to prevent their oppressed subjects from adopting principles that might call for equality and treatment with dignity.] The story of Pharaoh and the sorcerers is a clear example of this. When the sorcerers declared their faith in Allah, and said, as written in the Qur'an: ["We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses," (Pharaoh) said: "Ye put faith in him before I give you leave. Lo! He is your chief who taught you magic. Now surely I shall cut off your hands and your feet alternately, and I shall crucify you on the trunks of palm trees, and ye shall know for certain which of us hath sterner and more lasting punishment"] (Ta-Ha 20:70-71). The tyranny of the rulers at that time hindered the spread of the universal call of Islam. So when the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) sent letters to rulers of the nearby countries inviting them to Islam, he (peace and blessings be upon him) told them that if they rejected the call, they would be responsible for misguiding their subjects. For example, he (peace and blessings be upon him) said in his letter to the emperor of the Byzantine Empire, "If you reject this call, you will be responsible for misguiding your Arisiayin (peasants)." He (peace and blessings be upon him) also wrote to the Persian Emeror, "If you refuse the call of Islam, you will be responsible for misguiding the Magians," and to Al-Muqawqis (ruler of Egypt) he wrote, "If you refuse the call of Islam, you will be responsible for misguiding the Copts." This state of affairs affirms the proverb that prevailed at that time: "People follow the religions of their rulers." Islam thus wanted to set matters right and give people the chance to see for themselves which path to follow. They were free to choose their beliefs that would establish their identity and shape their motives and goals in life. Hence, the wars in which the Muslims engaged in against the rulers of other countries led to the removal of the barriers between the common people of these countries and Islam. With this, they could choose for themselves, without fear of punishment, either to believe or disbelieve in Almighty Allah, bearing the full responsibility for their own choices. I'd like tell those who claim that Islam spread at the point of the sword that, while the sword may conquer lands and occupy states, it will never be able to open hearts and inculcate faith in people. Converting people requires acts of another kind. For example, it requires various means of persuasion, appeal to sentiments, and charisma. All of these qualities can help invite people to a new religion. Besides, forcing a certain kind of religion upon people usually ends up with them developing an aversion to the authority and its ideology. In addition, people who deeply contemplate Islamic history and the method of the spread of Islam around the world will come to realize that Islam did not spread immediately in the countries conquered by the Muslims. The spread of Islam only occurred after while, after the barriers between the common people of these countries and Islam were removed. At this point, they were able to consider Islam within a peaceful atmosphere, away from the disturbance of war and the battlefields. Thus, non-Muslims were able to witness the excellent morals of the Muslims, with their very own eyes, and the ways in which Muslims dealt with their Lord, as well as with non-Muslims and other Muslims. Keep in mind the example of Egypt, where although the Copts joyfully welcomed the Muslims' entry into Egypt, they did not immediately embrace Islam. It was only on an individual basis that the Egyptians converted to Islam. Even the Coptic man who was treated with impressive justice at the hands of Caliph `Umar (when `Umar punished the son of Egypt's ruler because the latter had unjustly lashed the Coptic man's son) did not embrace Islam (and no Muslim then ever thought to force him to do so). Edited by ak_m_f |
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fredifreeloader ![]() Guest Group ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 456 |
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i dont know what the problem is here, ahmad, the thing is in the public domain after all. both the arabic and the english translation are on full display in sohar fort, located in harat al hajara, in sohar town, oman. the present day fort dates from 13th/14th century, built by the emirs of hormuz, and features a 10km escape tunnel! the letter was to abd and jaifar, two sons of al julanda, joint rulers of oman, and is "dealt" with in this book: http://islamicbookstore.com/b3767.html click on the second contents pages. you will see near the top on page 82, the section of the book featuring the letter. your assertion that "no ahadith or any other source can supersede the quran" is false. the penalty of stoning to death of adulterers is not in the quran (at least not now ), but that is the correct penalty for adultery according to islam incidentally, my information is that the death penalty for apostasy is also in the quran, but is twisted to fit a supposed war context by those who dont believe in it Fredifreeloader: Where is the death penalty for apostasy in Qur'an? Evidence? You are adamant not to listen to others. What is your purpose here? Are you sincere in learning anything here? You are spreading lies. Comply with guidelines. It is the warning!----Peacemaker
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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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ak_m_f ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 October 2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3272 |
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Jesus, who clearly is of greater importance than Paul, said the Old Law was to remain in force until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplished (�For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven�-Matthew 5:18-19 RSV). Heaven and earth still exist and many prophecies are not yet fulfilled. So If you dont follow the old Law then you are not following the bible.; also fredi aren�t the Ten Commandments part of the Old Law?, I think you shuld Ignore them too because we are living in age of "grace" Edited by ak_m_f |
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fredifreeloader ![]() Guest Group ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 456 |
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akmf - you sound as if youve devoured too many islamic history books:-"this is the custom of tyrants from the dawn of history, to prevent their oppressed subjects from adopting principles that might call for equality and treatment with dignity". indeed, but "answering the call to islam" is not going to solve this issue, as can be readily ascertained by considering the plight of the copts in egypt today, and non-muslims living in muslim lands in todays world, subject as they are to oppression, ridicule, 2nd class citizenship and the lazy corruption of officials that is the hallmark of these countries. it is also the custom of tyrants to issue ultimatums to neighbouring countries with view to furthering their own nefarious ends your story from the quran regarding pharaoh and the sorcerers is clearly false, as crucifixion, being an invention of the romans, had not been thought of at the time of the pharaohs |
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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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ak_m_f ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 October 2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3272 |
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fredi I think you eat bible 3 times a day. ![]() Well if you dont want to believe Quran, then you are free to do so. Or I am allowed to kill you because you dont believe in quran? like it says in quran rite? please post your addres so I can complete mt religious duty ASAP ps dont get scared I am being sarcastic, in case you tip Feds off. ![]() Edited by ak_m_f |
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fredifreeloader ![]() Guest Group ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 456 |
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but i have not said that the quran allows you to kill me, in fact i know it doesnt. i will answer your statement about the law if i have time. it is not a priority as it it off-topic Edited by fredifreeloader |
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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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ak_m_f ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 October 2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3272 |
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really then how do you explain this :
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