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Caringheart 
Senior Member 
Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
 Posted: 31 January 2016 at 2:55pm |
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Greetings AhmadJoyia, Let me offer a bit of correction and clarity? The early Christians I refer to are the ones who established the different churches throughout the land. Among the churches there was concern that there might be a difference of teaching taking place, so the council of Nicea was called to bring the heads of the churches(the Bishops) together for comparison and discussion of teaching. Again, I share; So it would seem that what had been passed on by the first Disciples had been preserved among the majority of the church... as the majority of the church turned out to be in agreement... and those who might have had a different understanding of the teaching of Yshwe were brought to understanding through discussions... with the exception of only 3.300 bishops gathered at Nicea, there were 17 dissenters at first, and in the end only 3 dissenters to the interpretation of the scripture. It didn't, as you say, 'take more than 400 years'... and the council convened in 325 a.d. anyway, and that is not 400 years. But as I say, the council was only to bring together the heads of the churches to compare notes. As it turned out, they were already, mostly in agreement. asalaam and blessings, Caringheart (I will now move along to the rest of your post. I will have to take in parts due to time and energy constrictions.) Edited by Caringheart - 31 January 2016 at 3:37pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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Caringheart
Senior Member
Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
Posted: 31 January 2016 at 3:05pm |
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Greetings Ahmad, My reply is not meant 'as a diverter'... not at all. I was merely pointing out that the very same complaint you make against the Bible is true also of the qur'an, yet you make no complaint against the qur'an for the same thing? I was pointing out that oral tradition was the common thing. It 'was' the means by which history was preserved and passed on. I share also a few facts: Textual and archaeological evidences do not support the traditional views about the formation and preservation of the quranic text. All of the ancient manuscriptual evidence that has been found post-dates Uthman by at least a century, and differs from the present �standard� version of the Arabic Qur�an at a number of points. This divergence is true even for those manuscripts and other evidences that are dated closer to the time of Uthman�s life. Some Muslim scholars claim to have uncovered 7th century copies of the original quranic manuscript, sent throughout the newly formed Arab Empire by Uthman. The texts that form the basis for this claim are the Topkapi MSS in Istanbul, and the Samarkand MSS in Tashkent. Despite the assertions, manuscript experts have ruled out the possibility that these are first-generation copies of Uthman�s text, and instead date these manuscripts from the late 8th century, at the earliest. The reason for doing so is because these two manuscripts were copied in what is known as the Kufic script, a style which originated in the Iraqi city of Kufah and was largely used from the late 8th to the 11th centuries, only gradually finding widespread use in the rest of the Muslim world, until it was replaced by a different style of script called the Naskh script5. there are no ancient copies of the Koran dating before 745 AD in museums. The best thing I can think to do is to share with you this following link, for there is far too much there to share, all of which is intriguing. Begin with hadith 509 and read onward. http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/061-sbt.php I find 506 particularly interesting also. The point is, the qur'an was kept through oral tradition, and later recorded through anonymous authorship as well. Do you reject it because of this? asalaam and blessings, Caringheart Edited by Caringheart - 31 January 2016 at 3:11pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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Caringheart
Senior Member
Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
Posted: 31 January 2016 at 3:28pm |
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Greetings AhmadJoyia, I believe I see your confusion here. It is true that the Canon.... the decision of which books could be accepted as valid... was not determined until a later date, but each of the books of the final canonized (or accepted) books of the Bible, were put down in writing by the end of the 1st century after the resurrection of Yshwe. I wonder, how carefully did you read at the site you gave to me? It is evident that the elders of each congregation had approved certain writings and rejected others as they became available, and it turned out, by the grace of God, that most of the churches were by the year 170 in agreement, having approved the same books independently. The following should be helpful to your understanding. When were the Bible books written?asalaam and blessings to you, Caringheart Edited by Caringheart - 31 January 2016 at 3:30pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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The Saint
Senior Member 
Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
Posted: 01 February 2016 at 7:17am |
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It simply depends on whom you ask. Definitely nowhere near any truth at all.
Verily, I do not need to ask anyone about the Quran or the bible and their individual authenticity. I know. However, let me hear from you you as to why you think is not true. Please quote with reasonable proof. Indeed the Muslims claim their book to be perfect. The numerous errors and the almost total lack of testable information inside tell however otherwise. Strange that everybody else can see that, isn't it ? I am glad you can see what others cannot. Can you kindly quote examples, at least one each, of 'numerous errors' and 'lack of testable information' from the Quran. |
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and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
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The Saint
Senior Member
Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
Posted: 01 February 2016 at 8:35am |
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Greetings The Saint,
Why does unique preclude dimension? It seems to me multi-dimensional goes hand in hand with unique. :-) The verse I quoted from the Quran states four unique qualities of God Almighty that no one can ever claim. The Quran says: SURA 112. Ikhlas, or Purity (of Faith) 1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; 2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; 4. And there is none like unto Him. His uniqueness also includes that there is none like Him. Since there is none like Him how can there be a notion about dimensions because we can only speculate about dimensions regarding things only seen by us. He is also eternal and absolute. He is eternal but Jesus PBUH had an apparent beginning and he shall have to come again because according to divine law every human being born must die. He is one and only. If He is one only how can there be two more? He does not beget and He was not begotten. If He does not beget how could He have a son? The deception is that islam contains some of God's Truth, but it leads people away from God by denying it's follower's the message of Christ. Today, what you consider to be the message of Christ, it is not! In fact, almost no christian today harkens to Christ's true message as it is mostly not known. About two thousand years ago, a council of men, presided over by a pagan king sat down to decide what was the word of God, Injeel. Edwin H. Yamauchi writes in the forward of Darrell Bock�s new book The Missing Gospels, �Some scholars assert that the selection of books in the New Testament was rather arbitrary, and that the emergence of orthodox or �traditional� Christianity was based not on its merit but on the politics of the winning side.� Therefore, there were tens of other gospels that were left out on the basis of what men chose and rejected. Ever since God's word has been edited again and again by men who believe they know what the word of God should have been or should be. So, in my opinion you should have absolutely no idea at all what the revelation was to Jesus PBUH. On the other hand the Quran is an absolutely authentic text. It is the same book today that was revealed to Muhammad PBUH. Ask yourself which book is more authentic? We have a book absolutely unique in its origin, in its preservation� on the Substantial authority of which no one has ever been able to cast a serious doubt.264 (From Rev. Bosworth Smith's book, Muhammad and Muhammadanism) Sir William Muir, a renowned critic of Islam on the Quran: "There is not a single book on earth that has remained in its pristine form as it were revealed some 12 centuries ago, (now 14 centuries) but the Koran." More soon. Edited by The Saint - 01 February 2016 at 8:36am |
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and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
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The Saint
Senior Member
Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
Posted: 02 February 2016 at 2:23am |
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Do people really think, that somehow, repeating certain things often enough will make them true?
That is a question that very well may be asked of you? Do you think a two thousand years campaign to establish Jesus PBUH as God is ever going to convince Muslims or even Jews? The answer is no! Isn't this just repeating what you have always been told? Where is the proof? The qur'an was compiled by men... by men, hearing the words that came from Muhammad, which Muhammad said came from allah. Let me say this, the Quran is proof of itself. Yes! Unlike the Bible it is free of errors or contradictions. That is how a divine revelation ought to be. It contains knowledge that men of that age did not know. There is zero support for your final claim about the comforter. Yshwe clearly said that the Comforter would come to His Disciples, and would remain with them always. Muhammad never knew the Disciples of Yshwe, and Muhammad is dead. Show me where does the Bible specifically say that the Comforter would come to disciples? Muhammad PBUH is dead. But his message the Quran and the Hadiths are alive and they have, indeed lead to the complete truth. The verse of John clearly states that the Comforter 'will glorify Christ'... something which Muhammad does not do. The only people glorifying Yshwe, are the Christians Absolutely wrong! Jesus PBUH is mentioned in the Quran about 25 times, glorifying him. 3:45 O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. 42:13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah-the which We have sent by inspiration to thee-and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him). And many more instances in the Quran. Among the major world religions, Islam is the only non-Christian faith that recognizes the person of Jesus. |
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and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
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The Saint
Senior Member
Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
Posted: 02 February 2016 at 6:12am |
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Greetings The Saint,
God and His plurality, is revealed in the scriptures.... I don't know why this is a thing so hard for some to see, when to me it is quite clear. I would be very interested to hear from you what you consider to be proofs of the said plurality revealed in your scriptures. Because there is no such thing mentioned in the Quran. I mean, the people that walked and talked with Yshwe came to understand, because of the things that He said of Himself. It is the follower's of Christ that give us the understanding of God and His multiple, indefinable dimensions, of which, to us, He has revealed The most credible proof is that from God. If you can provide proof of a divine nature I will have no problem in accepting it. Nonetheless, I can provide evidence from the Bible, proving that God Almighty is alone in His infinite glory and Jesus PBUH is a great messenger sent by Him. Didn't the descendants of Abram inherit (i.e., take) the land of Canaan when the people led out of Egypt by Moses finally crossed over? (recorded in the book called Numbers, and in the book of Deuteronomy) Why then, is there an ongoing war between Abraham's descendents? Who are the real people whom the land belongs to? referring to his descendants as being 'as numerous as the stars of heaven', to my mind, is poetic language. Poetic language? Really? This sentence alone, actually, proves who the real descendants of Abraham really are! Their sheer numbers speak for the Muslims. It seems to me that this is absolutely come true. Are there not those from all nations that now call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord? (Jew, Christian, and Muslim) ... that are 'gathered unto it, unto the name of the Lord'? and it will come to even greater fulfillment when Yshwe returns. No, that is not true at all. God's throne is above the heavens, definitely not on earth. And if you will consider this that the importance of Jerusalem was changed and Mecca was made the new Qibla. I do myself, always question why Yshwe(known to the Greeks as Jesus) was not named Emmanuel. I have no satisfactory answer so far... but I know what the life of Yshwe testifies. So, you do not have an answer to this. Let this be recorded. Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime. 16:28 You did not answer above? Young woman, virgin.... to me it is a small matter... I imagine in those days a young woman would mean a virgin. It is no small matter. A young woman may not necessarily be a virgin. Let us examine Romans 10:18 the figure of speech, 'all the world' This was being spoken by Paul, and to Paul the entire world was the Roman empire, and the gospel was being preached in all of the Roman empire. So Paul makes a statement... a figure of speech, but we know better... we know how much larger the world is than just the Roman empire... so it was not time for the end yet, was it? but we can say that that time is now, can't we? Yshwe spoke the Truth... that the Word must first go out to all the world, as it is today... and 'knowledge will run to and fro'(this is in the prophesy of Daniel 12:4)... as it is today, with the internet, and with jet planes. Are you saying that the word has still not gone out....even after two thousand years? No, this is an unfulfilled prophecy. Yshwe 'established His kingdom' with the church, when He returned in the form of the Holy Spirit, to His Disciples. When did he do that? Can you give a reference from the Bible? Clearly Jesus PBUH has a God over him. You have left-out several verses unanswered. Should I draw my conclusions? You did not address this one either_ "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, YHWH our God, YHWH is One.[e> 30 Love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with your entire mind and with all your strength.' |
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and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
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Ron Webb
Senior Member
Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
Posted: 02 February 2016 at 9:09am |
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 So much for "declaring the greatness only of your Lord"! Do you still support Nouman Ali Khan's translation of Quran verse 74:3?
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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The Original Sin
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AhmadJoyia wrote: