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Does God beget ? |
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robin ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 17 May 2008 Status: Offline Points: 595 |
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To Hasan
a) how many contradictions would you need as to prove thatthe Bible has contradictions in it?
b) If found such contradictions what will it mean to you?
That has to BE seen first, before acted upon:-
Proverbs 18:13
When anyone is replying to a matter before he hears [it], that is foolishness on his part and a humiliation. Edited by robin - 12 June 2008 at 11:49pm |
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robin ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 17 May 2008 Status: Offline Points: 595 |
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John 1:14-18 "ONLY-BEGOTTEN GOD" - mo�no�ge�nes' the�os' [of Jesus] "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth. (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out-this was the one who said [it]-saying: "The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.") For we all received from out of his fullness, even undeserved kindness upon undeserved kindness. Because the Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ. No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him". Ftn. John 1:18
�The only-begotten god,� P75!c; P66!*BC*, �only-begotten god�; ACcItVgSyc,h, �the only-begotten Son.�
John 3:18 "He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God."
1 John 4:9 "By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him."
Ftn. 1 John 4:9 "Only-begotten.� Gr., mo�no�ge�ne'; Lat., u�ni�ge'ni�tum." See 2:2 ftn. How he is the "only-begotten Son."
"Jesus' being called the "only-begotten Son" (John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1John 4:9) does not mean that the other spirit creatures produced were not God's sons, for they are called sons as well. (Gen 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:4-7) However, by virtue of his being the sole direct creation of his Father, the firstborn Son was unique, different from all others of God's sons, all of whom were created or begotten by Jehovah through that firstborn Son. So "the Word" was Jehovah's "only-begotten Son" in a particular sense, even as Isaac was Abraham's "only-begotten son" in a particular sense (his father already having another son but not by his wife Sarah).-Heb 11:17; Gen 16:15." This next quote is from Ignatius and in part expresses his view on a three past Godhead:- THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE TRALLIANS: LONGER VERSION. CHAP. VI.--ABSTAIN FROM THE POISON OF HERETICS. "I therefore, yet not l, out the love of Jesus Christ, "entreat you that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment."(6) For there are some vain talkers (8) and deceivers, not Christians, but Christ-betrayers, (9) bearing about the name of Christ in deceit, and "corrupting the word" (10) of the Gospel; while they intermix the poison of their deceit with their persuasive talk, (12) as if they mingled aconite with sweet wine, that so he who drinks, being deceived in his taste by the very great sweetness of the draught, may incautiously meet with his death. One of the ancients gives us this advice, "Let no man be called good who mixes good with evil." (15) For they speak of Christ, not that they may preach Christ, but that they may reject Christ; and they speak (16) of the law, not that they may establish the law, but that they may proclaim things contrary to it. For they alienate Christ from the Father, and the law from Christ. They also calumniate His being born of the Virgin; they are ashamed of His cross; they deny His passion; and they do not believe His resurrection. They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists. Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power."-This document (last modified September 27, 1996) from the "http://ccel.wheaton.edu" Christian Classics Ethereal Library server, at "http://www.wheaton.edu/" ONLY-BEGOTTEN
"The Greek word mo�no�ge�nes', is defined by lexicographers as "single of its kind, only," or "the only member of a kin or kind." (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 417; Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford, 1968, p. 1144) The term is used in describing the relation of both sons and daughters to their parents.
The Scriptures speak of "the only-begotten son" of a widow who lived in the city of The apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1John 4:9) This is not in reference to his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus. As the Lo'gos, or Word, "this one was in the beginning with God," even "before the world was." (John 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24) At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the "only-begotten Son" whom his Father sent "into the world."-1John 4:9. He is described as having "a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father," the one residing "in the bosom position with the Father." (John 1:14, 18) It is hard to think of a closer, more confidential, or more loving and tender relationship between a father and his son than this. The angels of heaven are sons of God even as Adam was a "son of God." (Ge 6:2; Job 1:6; 38:7; Luke 3:38) But the Lo'gos, later called Jesus, is "the only-begotten Son of God." (John 3:18) He is the only one of his kind, the only one whom God himself created directly without the agency or cooperation of any creature. He is the only one whom God his Father used in bringing into existence all other creatures. He is the firstborn and chief one among all other angels ( A few translations, in support of the Trinitarian "God the Son" concept, would invert the phrase mo�no�ge�nes' the�os' and render it as "God only begotten." But W. J. Hickie in his Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament (1956, p. 123) says it is hard to see why these translators render mo�no�ge�nes' hui�os' as "the only begotten Son," but at the same time translate mo�no�ge�nes' the�os' as "God only begotten," instead of "the only begotten God." Paul referred to Isaac as Abraham's "only-begotten son" (Heb 11:17), even though Abraham also fathered Ishmael by Hagar as well as several sons by Keturah. (Ge 16:15; 25:1, 2; 1Ch 1:28, 32) God's covenant, however, was established only through Isaac, Abraham's only son by God's promise, as well as the only son of Sarah. (Ge 17:16-19) Furthermore, at the time Abraham offered up Isaac, he was the only son in his father's household. No sons had yet been born to Keturah, and Ishmael had been gone for some 20 years-no doubt was married and head of his own household.-Ge 22:2. So from several viewpoints in regard to the promise and the covenant, the things about which Paul was writing to the Hebrews, Isaac was Abraham's only-begotten son. Hence, Paul parallels "the promises" and the "only-begotten son" with "'your seed' . . . through Isaac." (Heb 11:17, 18) Whether Josephus had a similar viewpoint or not, he too spoke of Isaac as Abraham's "only son."-Jewish Antiquities, I, 222 (xiii, 1). Such reconciliation to God is necessary because an alienation has existed, a separation, a lack of harmony and of friendly relations, more than that, a state of enmity. This came through the first man Adam's sin and the resultant sinfulness and imperfection inherited by all his descendants. (Ro 5:12; compare Isa 43:27.) The apostle could therefore say that "the minding of the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not under subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it be [due to its inherited imperfect, sinful nature]. So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God." (Ro 8:7, 8) Enmity exists because God's perfect standards do not allow for his approving or condoning wrongdoing. (Ps 5:4; 89:14) Of his Son, who reflected his Father's perfect qualities, it is written: "You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness." (Heb 1:9) Hence, even though "God is love" and even though "God loved the world [of mankind] so much that he gave his only-begotten Son" on mankind's behalf, the fact remains that mankind as a whole has been in a state of enmity toward God and that God's love toward the world of mankind was love toward enemies, a love guided by principle (Gr., agape) rather than affection or friendship (Gr., philia).-1Jo 4:16; Joh 3:16; compare James 4:4. The following is an example of the ideas of God calling other creatures god, God etc. Taken from 'THE ANTE-NICENE FATHERS' The Writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325 printed July, 1975 THE REV. ALEXANDER ROBERTS, D.D., AND JAMES DONALDSON, LL.D., EDITORS AMERICAN REPRINT OF THE EDINBURGH EDITION VOLUME 4 TERTULLIAN PART FOURTH; MINUCIUS FELIX; COMMODIAN; ORIGEN, PARTS FIRST AND SECOND. ORIGEN BK 7 Ch.65 p.1267-8 "In regard to the Persians, we have already said that though they do not build temples, yet they worship the sun and the other works of God. This is forbidden to us, for we have been taught not to worship the creature instead of the Creator, but to know that �the creation shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God;� and �the earnest expectation of the creation is waiting for the revelation of the sons of God;� and �the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who made it subject, in hope.� We believe, therefore, that things �under the bondage of corruption,� and �subject to vanity,� which remain in this condition �in hope� of a better state, ought not in our worship to hold the place of God, the all-sufficient, and of His Son, the First-born of all creation. Let this suffice, in addition to what we have already said of the Persians, who abhor altars and images, but who serve the creature instead of the Creator. As to the passage quoted by Celsus from Heraclitus, the purport of which he represents as being, �that it is childish folly for one to offer prayers to images, whilst he knows not who the gods and heroes are,� we may reply that it is easy to know that God and the Only-begotten Son of God, and those whom God has honored with the title of God, and who partake of His divine nature, are very different from all the gods of the nations which are demons; but it is not possible at the same time to know God and to address prayers to images." |
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minuteman ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 25 March 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1642 |
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Robin, did Jesus also say "the word became flesh"? If so please give short reply with refrence. Thanks. Otherwise your post has no meaning.
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robin ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 17 May 2008 Status: Offline Points: 595 |
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�The Word� is a title for Jesus when he was in heaven acting as his spokesman or messenger between God and humans. John 1:14
So the Word became flesh . . .
Philippians 2:7
No, but he (The Word) emptied himself and took a slave�s form and came to be in the likeness of men.
1 Timothy 3:16
Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: �He (The Word) was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.�
Revelation 19:12-14
He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God. 14 Also, the armies that were in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. . . |
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minuteman ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 25 March 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1642 |
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Sorry, robin, it did not serve the purpose. You could not present anything (not a single word) from Jesus that was a word became flesh. Anybody else can say anything. But has no meaning for such important issues.
I see that you are flying high with your excessive knowledge and some self generated sentences. We need scripture. We know that in the OT is written, "In the beginning was the word..." But who said that word became flesh?? You seemed to have failed by not giving something from Jesus himself who should have known it more than any one else that he was the word and that he had become flesh.
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Angel ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 03 July 2001 Status: Offline Points: 6641 |
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here's a for some info:
these are commentaries on the verse on- the word...
Geneva Study Bible, 7) That Son who is God from everlasting took upon himself man's nature, so that one and the selfsame might be both God and man, who manifestly appeared to many witnesses that saw him, amongst whom he was conversant and unto whom by sure and undoubted arguments he showed both of his natures.
People's New Testament, 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. The Word assumed a human form and became incarnate as the child of Mary.
This link has a bit more research about it: haven't read it all.
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robin ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 17 May 2008 Status: Offline Points: 595 |
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Jesus says he is from "heaven"!
John 3:11-13
Most truly I say to you, What we know we speak and what we have seen we bear witness of, but YOU people do not receive the witness we give. 12 If I have told YOU earthly things and yet YOU do not believe, how will YOU believe if I tell YOU heavenly things? 13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man. John 6:32-34
Hence Jesus said to them: "Most truly I say to YOU, Moses did not give YOU the bread from heaven, but my Father does give YOU the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." 34 Therefore they said to him: "Lord, always give us this bread."
John 6:41
Therefore the Jews began to murmur at him because he said: "I am the bread that came down from heaven. .
John 6:48-51
"I am the bread of life. 49 YOUR forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world."
John 6:58
This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when YOUR forefathers ate and yet died. He that feeds on this bread will live forever."
John 6:37-38
Everything the Father gives me will come to me, and the one that comes to me I will by no means drive away; 38 because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.. .
John 3:13
Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.
Thus as Jesus has come down from "heaven" he must be "The Word" made flesh!
John 8:23
So he went on to say to them: "YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.
John 8:42
Jesus said to them: "If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth. Edited by robin - 16 June 2008 at 8:21am |
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honeto ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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Robin,
sorry I was away for a few days, and was unable to repond, but I am here now.
I admire your knowledge of the scripture that gives you advantage over those of us who know less of your book.
Does that prove you right and us wrong, let see.
First I will say that we agree on some issues while there are others that don't make a differance if talked or not. Most of what you have said so far on any issue is based on what you interpret from "the Bible". I say, I have no problem to talk or discuss but no reason to believe anything that comes out of a book that has some serious problems and issues, not a characteristic of a devine book. Those problems and contradictions make it hard to trust any part of it since you don't know what was true and which part was altered, added or subtracted.
As a matter of principle I will mention only a few, as even one is enough to prove inconsistancy of the Bible. Here is an example of such contradictions:
Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters�yes, even his own life�he cannot be my disciple. If Jesus has said that, then we must not find him say anything that would negativate this statment, yet we find this:
1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. So, according to his own words, since he is preaching to hate, he is a murderer also?
Here is another one, this one talks that a person bears his own sin and pays for his/her own sins:
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Now if the Bible said something contradictory to that principle, then its not from God. And ironically, we do find statement in the same book that quotes God of having said quite contradictory to what have been said in the above statment, here it is:
Exodus 20:5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.
Do we need more?
Hasan
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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