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Topic ClosedIs Islam true?

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Aamatillaah View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 March 2006 at 1:40am

In the name of God, the most Gracious, the most Merciful.

 

Hello Melco,

 

I have a question to Melco that kindly tell me that you start the issue that �Islam is not the true religion�, what is the basic purpose to start this issue? There maybe the following purposes

 

       To get the knowledge about Islam.

       Or to condemned Islam.

       Or you want to know the true path/religion.

       Or you just want to critique upon Islam to divert others.

       Or you have a true intention to know which religion is true and what should be followed by you.

 

Sir, your purpose what ever may be, the one thing which I add here that one and the most important thing in our life is that �we must search for the truth, (with an open heart and open mind)� and when we find the reality we must have to accept it.

 

Sir Melco, if you have true intention to know the true religion than I can give you the �key� of this way. The way of searching the true path is very difficult but if you have the true intention to know the reality than you can reach there. If �searching the true path� is your aim of your life than you can get it, but if you have other purposes except this on, than it can�t be benefit to you and others as well.

May Allah guide you toward right path.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 March 2006 at 6:53am

Originally posted by Fredifreeloader Fredifreeloader wrote:

......... but all this may leave you with a problem, i dont know.  how do you explain the clear reports in the hadith (see my quote from mawdudi) of women being killed for apostasy?  did muhammad enlist them in his army only for them to desert?  or was the issue simply a rejection of his revelations?

My dear bro Fredi I am always in trouble except when Allah have mercy on me. For that I must always be thankfull to Him and Him alone. No ghost can intervene. 

As far as the examples of Maulana are concerned, one way to reply is to simply refute the issue on the pretext of false assumptions that he made. But probably you want more than that. For this I would like you to fill up your deficiencies in refering his work as well as the reference provided by him in his work. Both are missing and in the absence of these, no sound analysis can be expected.

The other dimension specific to this issue of Muslim army and women's role in it, one must not forget that during those days, whole Muslim community was at threat and therefore each and every person in that community was considered to part of Muslim army, as the direct consequences of the battle would be shared by all of them equally whether they actively participated in the battle front or not. Nevertheless, it must be more informative for you to know that Muslim women used to participate in the active battle grounds as well, as a medical aid providers to the injured people.

 With this background it is not sufficient to present such examples to support one's particular argument in favour of their case.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 March 2006 at 9:03am
Originally posted by ak_m_f ak_m_f wrote:

Originally posted by Melco Melco wrote:

I am not happy being constantly censured here. Freedom and truth go
hand in hand. I am leaving it here. I am disillusioned with Islam. If
it's followers are anything to go by, it is far too heavy handed for my
taste. If only Muslims would the necessary implications when they
claims to believe in an All Merciful God, but are Non Merciful
themselves. Where's the tolerance? That's why the word "hypocrisy" is
all that I have left to say on the issue. Is Islam true? No, it's
hypocritical. The average atheist probably lives a far holier life.


I dont know what to make of your post, its pretty clear you didint understood it(islam)


Al-Fatihah

  1. ALLAH in the name of The Most Affectionate, the Merciful.

  2. All praise unto Allah, Lord of all the worlds.

  3. The most Affectionate, The Merciful.

  4. Master of the Day of Requital.

  5. We worship You alone, and beg You alone for help.

  6. Guide us in the straight path.

  7. The path of those whom You have favoured. Not of those who have earned Your anger and nor of those who have gone astray.

Seriously, after 38 pages of debating....there's no shine or 'hidayah' fall upon him.....all da'i have done your responsibilities.....it is the matter of whom Allah wants to give 'hidayah' to....Allahua'lam...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 March 2006 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by feryfarah82 feryfarah82 wrote:


Seriously, after 38 pages of debating....there's no shine or 'hidayah' fall upon him.....all da'i have done your responsibilities.....it is the matter of whom Allah wants to give 'hidayah' to....Allahua'lam...


I have thought this myself.  However, I have also learned through these writings, even though they sometimes seemed overly contentious.

I originally came to this board to ask some questions which I did, on another thread.  I was kindly referred to this thread by bro. Ahmad Joyia, and have enjoyed reading it since.

But it was hidden, since I was not especially concerned with the subject listed on the subject line, and I was not especially enamoured with the thought of reading 29 pages, with excursions off-topic and sometimes repetitive and tedious contention.

Perhaps starting a new thread with a more pertenent subject line would be the best course, one which accurately describes the discussion.

Wa salaam.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 March 2006 at 7:04am
Dear Bro runner, go ahead with the new topic that you are interested in. Hopefully you will make lot of friends on this forum. Peace.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 March 2006 at 12:59pm
ahmad - were you asking me to give references for the two instances of women executed for apostasy given in maududis book? - well for the first woman it simply says "bayhaqi" and for the second(the named woman) its says "bayhaqi and daraqutni"  its not a lot to go on, it seems to me
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 March 2006 at 1:04pm

one more section of proof for the execution of apostates is given here:

"C. The Views of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs

After the above I note the views during the era of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs:

1. During the time of Abu Bakr a woman named Umm Qarfa became a kafir after accepting Islam. Abu Bakr requested that she repent but she did not. Abu Bakr had her put to death.[13]

2. Amru ibn al-As, the governor of Egypt, wrote to Umar that a man accepted Islam, then became a kafir, then accepted Islam and then became a kafir. He committed this act several times. Now should his Islam be accepted or not? Umar replied: As long as God has accepted his Islam, you too should do so. Offer him Islam. If he accepts it, leave him alone. Otherwise kill him.[14]

3. Sad ibn Abi Waqqas and Abu Musa Ashari sent a messenger to Umar after the Battle of Tustar. The messenger presented a report of the events to Umar. Finally Umar asked: Did anything unusual happen? He said: Yes, Leader of the Faithful. We caught an Arab who had become a kafir after accepting Islam. Umar asked: Then what did you do with him? He said: We killed him. At that, Umar said: Why did you not confine him to a room, put a lock on the door, keep him there for three days and daily throw him a loaf of bread? Perhaps during that time he may have repented. O God! This act did not take place at my command or in my presence; nor after hearing about it am I pleased with it. Nevertheless Umar enquired no further about the matter from Sad and Abu Musa Ashari, nor did he plan to punish them.[15]

This proves that the action of Sad and Abu Musa was indeed within the limits of the law, but that in Umar's opinion it would have been much better to have given the person an opportunity to repent before killing him.

4. Abdullah ibn Masud was informed that in one of the mosques of the Banu Hanifah some people were testifying that Musaylimah was a messenger of God. Hearing this, Abdullah sent police to arrest and bring them. When they were brought before him, they all repented and promised never to do it again. Abdullah let all of them go except one, Abdullah ibn al-Nawahah, whom he punished by death. The people said: How is it that you have given two conflicting verdicts in the same case? Abdullah replied that Ibn al-Nawahah was the very man who has been sent by Musaylimah as an ambassador to the Prophet (Muhammad). I was present at that time. Another man, Hajar ibn Wathal, was also with him as a partner in this diplomatic mission. Muhammad asked both of them: Do you bear witness that I am the Messenger of God? They both responded by asking: Do you bear witness that Musaylimah is the Messenger of God? Hearing that, Muhammad replied: If it were permitted to execute the delegates of a political mission, I would execute you both. After relating this event, Abdullah said: For this reason I punished Ibn al-Nawahah by death.[16]

It is clear that this event occurred during the time of Umar when Abdullah ibn Masud was chief judge of Kufah under him.

5. Some men who were spreading the claim of Musaylimah were captured in Kufah. Uthman was informed in writing about it. He wrote in response that the true religion (din-i haqq) and the confession: "There is no god except God and Muhammad is the Messenger of God", should be presented before them. Whoever accepts it and reveals his rejection of Musaylimah should be released. Whoever upholds the religion of Musaylimah should be executed.[17]

6. A man who was formerly a Christian, then was Muslim, and again became a Christian was brought before Ali. Ali asked him: What is the cause of your conduct? He replied: I have found the religion of the Christians better than your religion. Ali asked: What is your belief about Jesus? He said: He is my Lord (Rabb); or else he said: He is Lord of Ali. Hearing this, Ali ordered that he be executed.[18]

7. Ali was informed about a group of Christians who had become Muslims and then became Christians again. Ali arrested them, summoned them before himself and enquired about the truth of the matter. They said: We were Christians. Then we were offered the choice of remaining Christians or becoming Muslims. We chose Islam. But now it is our opinion that no religion is more excellent than our first religion. Therefore we have become Christians now. Hearing this, Ali ordered these people to be executed and their children enslaved.[19]

8. Ali was informed that some people regarded him as their Lord (Rabb). He called them and asked: What do you say? They said: You are our Lord, our Creator and Sustainer. Ali said: You are in a sad situation. I am a servant like you. Like you I eat and drink. If I obey God, He rewards me. If I disobey Him, I fear He will punish me. Therefore fear God and abandon your confession. But they refused. The next day Qanbar came and reported the people were saying the same thing. He called them, and on enquiring about the matter, they repeated the same things. The third day Ali called and threatened them: If you say the same thing, I will kill you in a most terrible manner. Still they remained adamant in their opinion. Finally Ali had a pit prepared and a fire burning in it. Then he said: Look, stop this confession immediately. Otherwise I will throw you into this pit. But they persisted in their affirmation. Then at Ali's command all of them were thrown into the pit.[20]

9. When Ali was in Rahbah, someone informed him that the occupants of a particular house kept an idol in it and worshipped it. Hearing this, Ali himself went there. The idol was discovered after searching. Ali set the house on fire and it was burnt along with its occupants.[21]

10. A man who had been a Muslim but became a kafir was arrested. This happened during the time of Ali and he was brought to Ali. Ali gave him a one month period to repent and then enquired of him. But he refused to repent. Finally Ali had him put to death.[22]

These ten examples cover the whole period of the Rightly-Guided Caliphate and demonstrate that whenever apostasy occurred during the time of these four caliphs, the punishment meted out for it was death alone. In any of the events that these examples portray, the inclusion of another crime, apart from the apostasy itself, cannot be demonstrated whereby it could have been said that, in fact, the punishment of death had been given for another crime, not for apostasy.

D. The First Caliph's Jihad (Holy War) against Apostates

But more weighty than all of these examples is the example of the jihad of Abu Bakr Siddiq against "the people of apostasy". The whole company of the Companions of the Prophet participated in it. Even if in the beginning anyone disagreed with this war, later the disagreement changed to agreement. This event therefore clearly proves that those persons who received religious instruction directly from the Prophet were united in deciding that an Islamic government should wage war against any group that renounces Islam. Some people argue that this event was a jihad because they understand the apostates to have been in fact rebels who had ceased paying the government tax (zakat), dismissed the government officials and began to establish their own governments. But this argument is definitely wrong on four accounts:

1. Not all the people against whom the jihad was conducted withheld zakat. In fact they included various types of apostates. Some Arabs believed in individuals who had laid claim to prophethood and proclaimed their message in various corners of Arabia. Others renounced their faith in the prophethood of Muhammad, saying that if Muhammad had been a prophet, he would not have died (law kana Muhammadun nabiyyan ma mata). Some people acknowledged all the requirements of religion and were ready to pay even zakat. But, they added, they themselves would collect and spend their zakat and would not give it to the officials of Abu Bakr. Still others said: We followed God's Messenger when he was among us, but how amazing that Abu Bakr's rule is imposed upon us!

It was as if they opposed the establishment of the caliphate after the prophet and the arrangement that all Muslims by compulsion were attached to this focal point as they had been attached to the personality of the Messenger of God.

2. For all these various kinds of people the Companions of the Prophet used the word "apostate" (murtadd) instead of "rebel" and the word "apostasy" (irtidad) instead of "rebellion" when referring to that disturbance. From this it is clearly evident that in their view the real crime that the people had committed was apostasy and not rebellion. At the time when Abu Bakr sent Ikrimah ibn Abi Jahl to wage a jihad against the people in South Arabia who had confessed the prophethood of Laqit ibn Malik al-Azdi, he advised him: Wherever you find apostates from Oman to Hadramaut and Yemen, crush them.

3. When doubt was expressed regarding the permissibility or otherwise of waging a war against those who refused to pay zakat, Abu Bakr replied: By God! I will wage war against anyone who differentiates between namaz (ritual prayer) and zakat (almsgiving). This clearly means that in the view of the first caliph their real crime was not the withholding of zakat but the acceptance of one pillar (of Islam) and the rejection of another.[23]

Finally the companions agreed with the caliph to wage jihad against those refusing to pay zakat only because they were completely satisfied with the incumbent caliph's arguments that the opponents had renounced the true religion by drawing a (false) distinction between namaz and zakat.

4. More decisive than all of the above is Abu Bakr's proclamation which he had issued in writing to each of the commanders of the eleven armies at the time he sent the armies to the various parts of Arabia to wage jihad against the apostates. Hafiz ibn Kathir has copied the full proclamation in his book al-Badayah w'al-Nahayah (Vol. 6, p. 316). The following sentences especially merit consideration:

I have come to know about the movement of those among you who have accepted following Satan and who, having no fear of God, have turned from Islam to kufr. Now I have sent you someone with an army of faithful followers[24] and have advised him to accept nothing from anyone except faith and to execute no one without first inviting him to God, the Mighty and Glorious One. Then whoever accepts his invitation to God and, after confession, maintains good conduct, he will accept his confession and assist him in walking in the right path. And he will fight whoever refuses until he returns to the commandment of God. And he has been ordered to leave no one alive whom he has seized among those who have refused, to set fire to their villages, to destroy them, to enslave their women and children and to accept nothing from anyone except Islam. Thus whoever accepts his word does it for his own good and whoever does not will not be able to impoverish God. I have also directed the commander whom I have sent to announce my plan in all your assemblies and that the sign of accepting Islam is the call to prayer. Do not oppose the village where the call to prayer is heard. Where there is no call to prayer, ask the people why. If they refuse, attack them. If they confess, treat them as they deserve.[25]"

for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Andalus View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 March 2006 at 9:12pm

Greetings fredi.

I would not mind discussing the topic with you. I would not mind as long as

1) you quote your sources

2) reply with an argument without dumping (that would be a contribution made up of a long list of quotes)

3) agree upon a point of the discussion (for the sake of benefit)

Let me know what you think?

Peace  

 

Originally posted by fredifreeloader fredifreeloader wrote:

one more section of proof for the execution of apostates is given here:

"C. The Views of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs

After the above I note the views during the era of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs:

1. During the time of Abu Bakr a woman named Umm Qarfa became a kafir after accepting Islam. Abu Bakr requested that she repent but she did not. Abu Bakr had her put to death.[13]

2. Amru ibn al-As, the governor of Egypt, wrote to Umar that a man accepted Islam, then became a kafir, then accepted Islam and then became a kafir. He committed this act several times. Now should his Islam be accepted or not? Umar replied: As long as God has accepted his Islam, you too should do so. Offer him Islam. If he accepts it, leave him alone. Otherwise kill him.[14]

3. Sad ibn Abi Waqqas and Abu Musa Ashari sent a messenger to Umar after the Battle of Tustar. The messenger presented a report of the events to Umar. Finally Umar asked: Did anything unusual happen? He said: Yes, Leader of the Faithful. We caught an Arab who had become a kafir after accepting Islam. Umar asked: Then what did you do with him? He said: We killed him. At that, Umar said: Why did you not confine him to a room, put a lock on the door, keep him there for three days and daily throw him a loaf of bread? Perhaps during that time he may have repented. O God! This act did not take place at my command or in my presence; nor after hearing about it am I pleased with it. Nevertheless Umar enquired no further about the matter from Sad and Abu Musa Ashari, nor did he plan to punish them.[15]

This proves that the action of Sad and Abu Musa was indeed within the limits of the law, but that in Umar's opinion it would have been much better to have given the person an opportunity to repent before killing him.

4. Abdullah ibn Masud was informed that in one of the mosques of the Banu Hanifah some people were testifying that Musaylimah was a messenger of God. Hearing this, Abdullah sent police to arrest and bring them. When they were brought before him, they all repented and promised never to do it again. Abdullah let all of them go except one, Abdullah ibn al-Nawahah, whom he punished by death. The people said: How is it that you have given two conflicting verdicts in the same case? Abdullah replied that Ibn al-Nawahah was the very man who has been sent by Musaylimah as an ambassador to the Prophet (Muhammad). I was present at that time. Another man, Hajar ibn Wathal, was also with him as a partner in this diplomatic mission. Muhammad asked both of them: Do you bear witness that I am the Messenger of God? They both responded by asking: Do you bear witness that Musaylimah is the Messenger of God? Hearing that, Muhammad replied: If it were permitted to execute the delegates of a political mission, I would execute you both. After relating this event, Abdullah said: For this reason I punished Ibn al-Nawahah by death.[16]

It is clear that this event occurred during the time of Umar when Abdullah ibn Masud was chief judge of Kufah under him.

5. Some men who were spreading the claim of Musaylimah were captured in Kufah. Uthman was informed in writing about it. He wrote in response that the true religion (din-i haqq) and the confession: "There is no god except God and Muhammad is the Messenger of God", should be presented before them. Whoever accepts it and reveals his rejection of Musaylimah should be released. Whoever upholds the religion of Musaylimah should be executed.[17]

6. A man who was formerly a Christian, then was Muslim, and again became a Christian was brought before Ali. Ali asked him: What is the cause of your conduct? He replied: I have found the religion of the Christians better than your religion. Ali asked: What is your belief about Jesus? He said: He is my Lord (Rabb); or else he said: He is Lord of Ali. Hearing this, Ali ordered that he be executed.[18]

7. Ali was informed about a group of Christians who had become Muslims and then became Christians again. Ali arrested them, summoned them before himself and enquired about the truth of the matter. They said: We were Christians. Then we were offered the choice of remaining Christians or becoming Muslims. We chose Islam. But now it is our opinion that no religion is more excellent than our first religion. Therefore we have become Christians now. Hearing this, Ali ordered these people to be executed and their children enslaved.[19]

8. Ali was informed that some people regarded him as their Lord (Rabb). He called them and asked: What do you say? They said: You are our Lord, our Creator and Sustainer. Ali said: You are in a sad situation. I am a servant like you. Like you I eat and drink. If I obey God, He rewards me. If I disobey Him, I fear He will punish me. Therefore fear God and abandon your confession. But they refused. The next day Qanbar came and reported the people were saying the same thing. He called them, and on enquiring about the matter, they repeated the same things. The third day Ali called and threatened them: If you say the same thing, I will kill you in a most terrible manner. Still they remained adamant in their opinion. Finally Ali had a pit prepared and a fire burning in it. Then he said: Look, stop this confession immediately. Otherwise I will throw you into this pit. But they persisted in their affirmation. Then at Ali's command all of them were thrown into the pit.[20]

9. When Ali was in Rahbah, someone informed him that the occupants of a particular house kept an idol in it and worshipped it. Hearing this, Ali himself went there. The idol was discovered after searching. Ali set the house on fire and it was burnt along with its occupants.[21]

10. A man who had been a Muslim but became a kafir was arrested. This happened during the time of Ali and he was brought to Ali. Ali gave him a one month period to repent and then enquired of him. But he refused to repent. Finally Ali had him put to death.[22]

These ten examples cover the whole period of the Rightly-Guided Caliphate and demonstrate that whenever apostasy occurred during the time of these four caliphs, the punishment meted out for it was death alone. In any of the events that these examples portray, the inclusion of another crime, apart from the apostasy itself, cannot be demonstrated whereby it could have been said that, in fact, the punishment of death had been given for another crime, not for apostasy.

D. The First Caliph's Jihad (Holy War) against Apostates

But more weighty than all of these examples is the example of the jihad of Abu Bakr Siddiq against "the people of apostasy". The whole company of the Companions of the Prophet participated in it. Even if in the beginning anyone disagreed with this war, later the disagreement changed to agreement. This event therefore clearly proves that those persons who received religious instruction directly from the Prophet were united in deciding that an Islamic government should wage war against any group that renounces Islam. Some people argue that this event was a jihad because they understand the apostates to have been in fact rebels who had ceased paying the government tax (zakat), dismissed the government officials and began to establish their own governments. But this argument is definitely wrong on four accounts:

1. Not all the people against whom the jihad was conducted withheld zakat. In fact they included various types of apostates. Some Arabs believed in individuals who had laid claim to prophethood and proclaimed their message in various corners of Arabia. Others renounced their faith in the prophethood of Muhammad, saying that if Muhammad had been a prophet, he would not have died (law kana Muhammadun nabiyyan ma mata). Some people acknowledged all the requirements of religion and were ready to pay even zakat. But, they added, they themselves would collect and spend their zakat and would not give it to the officials of Abu Bakr. Still others said: We followed God's Messenger when he was among us, but how amazing that Abu Bakr's rule is imposed upon us!

It was as if they opposed the establishment of the caliphate after the prophet and the arrangement that all Muslims by compulsion were attached to this focal point as they had been attached to the personality of the Messenger of God.

2. For all these various kinds of people the Companions of the Prophet used the word "apostate" (murtadd) instead of "rebel" and the word "apostasy" (irtidad) instead of "rebellion" when referring to that disturbance. From this it is clearly evident that in their view the real crime that the people had committed was apostasy and not rebellion. At the time when Abu Bakr sent Ikrimah ibn Abi Jahl to wage a jihad against the people in South Arabia who had confessed the prophethood of Laqit ibn Malik al-Azdi, he advised him: Wherever you find apostates from Oman to Hadramaut and Yemen, crush them.

3. When doubt was expressed regarding the permissibility or otherwise of waging a war against those who refused to pay zakat, Abu Bakr replied: By God! I will wage war against anyone who differentiates between namaz (ritual prayer) and zakat (almsgiving). This clearly means that in the view of the first caliph their real crime was not the withholding of zakat but the acceptance of one pillar (of Islam) and the rejection of another.[23]

Finally the companions agreed with the caliph to wage jihad against those refusing to pay zakat only because they were completely satisfied with the incumbent caliph's arguments that the opponents had renounced the true religion by drawing a (false) distinction between namaz and zakat.

4. More decisive than all of the above is Abu Bakr's proclamation which he had issued in writing to each of the commanders of the eleven armies at the time he sent the armies to the various parts of Arabia to wage jihad against the apostates. Hafiz ibn Kathir has copied the full proclamation in his book al-Badayah w'al-Nahayah (Vol. 6, p. 316). The following sentences especially merit consideration:

I have come to know about the movement of those among you who have accepted following Satan and who, having no fear of God, have turned from Islam to kufr. Now I have sent you someone with an army of faithful followers[24] and have advised him to accept nothing from anyone except faith and to execute no one without first inviting him to God, the Mighty and Glorious One. Then whoever accepts his invitation to God and, after confession, maintains good conduct, he will accept his confession and assist him in walking in the right path. And he will fight whoever refuses until he returns to the commandment of God. And he has been ordered to leave no one alive whom he has seized among those who have refused, to set fire to their villages, to destroy them, to enslave their women and children and to accept nothing from anyone except Islam. Thus whoever accepts his word does it for his own good and whoever does not will not be able to impoverish God. I have also directed the commander whom I have sent to announce my plan in all your assemblies and that the sign of accepting Islam is the call to prayer. Do not oppose the village where the call to prayer is heard. Where there is no call to prayer, ask the people why. If they refuse, attack them. If they confess, treat them as they deserve.[25]"

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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