Couple of questions

elijah-boy wrote: That concludes the discussion. I've asked 3 times the same questions and that simply means the answer doesn't exist. Your personal opinions will remain opinions without substantiation form the source of your faith.

Hello Eiljah,

I have not been able to address your reply to me, because I have my hands full at the moment with other obligations. Was planning on responding (inshAllah) once I got the time. However during this time it appears that you have formed your own conclusions. . . although I am sure you had those opinions when you first came here. Most non-Muslims do, none of what you said was any different than the general opinion non-Muslims have. Unfortunately we muslims should also take the blame for being unaware of our own religion and not representing it in the best light. 

Hopefully we can continue the discussion and try and address some of the points you brought up.

I now actually think Andalus may well have been right in saying he's not here to converse or clear his misconceptions off, rather to try and pin point Islam on various issues.

elijah-boy wrote: I just want this world to be without hateful religious dogmas, be it judaism or islam.

Awww Glad to see your approach is positive, but ignorance and blaming issues on a religion on assumptions won't help.
^You're somewhat a classic example of this, I'll show ya how

elijah-boy wrote: I think it would be a better place without hands being chopped off

First, you make it sound like every other person's hands are chopped off. Second, if say, a serial killer has his whatever not chopped off, how the heck is that gonna make this world a better place?
And don't make me go on to some other laws and crap, where criminals are tortured so mercilessly that they wish their life be ended rather than facing the torture.

elijah-boy wrote: without stoning, without death sentences to homosexuals and lesbians, without muhammed who orders woman to service men sexually when they wish to have intercourse, without extermination of infidels, without honor killings, without public executions, without blaming jews for all the sins, without demonizing big satan america and small satan israel, without killings in the name of allah, without religios schools where children have to memorize quotes without questioning them, without campaigns that would send Ayan Hirshi Ali, Salman Rushdy, and dutch cartoonist to hiding in their own countries, without death threats, without hypocrytes (like you guys that make look anti-human thing seem likable, without intolerance to other systems of beleives, without woman being afraid of their sexuality, without perverted muhamed slept with aisha when she was.. you know, without taliban rule where women are caged into the dress where you can hardly breathe and where you obliterated to a household item.

Here we go with the ignorance. Guess what, if anything, you're not any different from the terrorists. They out of ignorance think that blaming the religion for the violence they cause out of their own evil wants will do the trick. And people of your sorts, show an even greater essence of ignorance when they go all "hey, what kind of a religion encourages all this crap?". Puh-lease, you really have to reject your simple sense to not understand that people like these in fact have no religion. Its really ridiculous how easily you're led to believing that crap, no personal thinking involved whatsoever.

You say all this in this thread, just cuz you get the chance by many not knowing much of the Sharia law. I tried Googling and Youtubing it for personal knowledge of all this. Not so surpsrisingly, the results were negative, more so in this case, all non-Islamic sources, filled with laughable explanations and deceving implications. Seriously, if you're actually for finding out the reality, atleast go to the actual Islami sources? You don't go to a mechanical engineer when you get sick.

I do know one thing for sure though. That the Sharia law is based on the sacred sources of Islam, which is nothing but Quran. And if anything contradicts it, we readily write it off, you're pretty clear on this I suppose. Now, all what you have stated is pathetic, strictly written off by the Quran and hence Islam. Quran clearly writes off killing innocents, in the name of God or sex or whatever the hell, killing innocents is frikkin F-O-R-B-I-D-D-E-N. Regardless of what their religion is and what they've done to you. Opressing women is strictly F-O-R-B-I-D-D-E-N. Straight from the Quran. Some of that are cultural and traditional problems, not religious, IMO. Have you bothered finding it out for yourself? In fact, a couple of these things you bought in other threads were clearly told you to be false ideas of Islam, with straight quotations from the Quran. Yet you're on about them?

"without perverted muhamed slept with aisha when she was.. you know,

^That. Bet ya heard it from some buddy of yours, or some people using this sad excuse to downgrade Islam, and you decided to believe it. Well first off people like those need to get a life. Second, you need to get some sense. Can always ask an explanation of this issue from a muslim who knows his religion for a change, nah?

When Aisha RA married the Prophet SAW, she did NOT go and live with him until she was old enough to have children. Might as well kick "he slept with her when she was oh-so-young" claim out the window now

elijah-boy wrote: I think quran is retarded at best.

^lol. Consider yourself in my position, if you see me claim a book, which I have no clue about what it says in reality, to be retarded, wouldn't you laugh?

elijah-boy wrote: I was born in jewish family with a superiority complex towards anybody else in the world. I was all for the idea that people are equal, providing that I'm as a jew is "a bit more equal". It was a very nice and safe place for my personality. I could say a lot of 'pro' arguments, that were pretty convoluted (same as andalus does), and I was defending judaism vehemently as renouncing ot was renouncing my own life - but at some point I started reading what the old testament says and I felt like vomiting There was genocide, extermination of the whole countries, killings of children and woman, death sentence for homosexulas, hateful language and hatred dripping off the pages towards other people, the book of "shulhan aruh" that prescribed a way of life only for zombi-like beleivers, statements form keading jewish rabbies saying thatjewish blood is superioir and the blood of on-jewish people cannot be transfused to a sacred jewish body, phrases that if as a jew you rape a young girl she deserves to die because seduced sacred jewish spirit, that killing a non-jew is not really a crime, that arabs should be exterminated in order to restore Palestime borders, and so on.

Woah... is that really true?! That's a bit shocking for me, not unexpected though.


ZOMG. Nawwwwww wall of texxttttt!




Edited by xx__Ace__xx - 16 June 2010 at 12:12pm

If you're finally open-minded about this, then we're all ready to help ya with your proofs  Since Chrysalis said she's a little occuiped currently, let me have a go at it.

elijah-boy wrote: I would appreciate if you (or somebody else) can guarantee that quran dosen't say otherwise - that infidels should be considered as enemy, their laws should not be respected, and basically they should be killed.

... مَن قَتَلَ نَفْسًا بِغَيْرِ نَفْسٍ أَوْ فَسَادٍ فِي الأَرْضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَمَنْ أَحْيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَا أَحْيَا النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا ...... ...whoever slays a soul, unless it be for murder or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew entire mankind; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept entire mankind alive ... (Quran 5:32)

^Lets start with this verse, it clearly speaks off against taking an innocent life.

Moving on, I'll address the verses in the Quran which talk in regard to your question.

1> One of the biggest negative impressions of Islam worldwide imply that Islam encourages the slaughter of non-believers or infidels. And often this verse is quoted to 'prove' it;

"slay them wherever you catch them" (Qur'an 2:191)

Ya know, the one thing you'll always need to keep in mind is, that people who have the hatred of Islam will always go to any extent in proving Islam is violent. This verse is nothing but ridiculously out of context, here's the entire verse;

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter... But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful... If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (2:190-193).

^See  How clearly a verse which is discussing defense is made to sound like hatred against the non-believers by quoting the bit of part which is nothing but totally out of the context to which this verse is talking. This verse directly talks about when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders or non-combatants.
The ONLY instance in the Quran where us muslims are allowed to even think of fighting is when attacked, other than self defense, there's no violence and injustice in Islam at all.

2> A similar verse can be found in chapter 9, verse 5 -- which in its snipped, out of context version could read: "fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)." Again, the preceding and following verses give the context.

This verse was revealed during a historical period when the small Muslim community had entered into treaties with neighboring tribes (Jewish, Christian, and pagan). Several of the pagan tribes had violated the terms of their treaty, secretly aiding an enemy attack against the Muslim community. The verse directly before this one instructs the Muslims to continue to honor treaties with anyone who has not since betrayed them, because fulfilling agreements is considered a righteous action. Then the verse continues, that those who have violated the terms of the treaty have declared war, so fight them...

Directly after this permission to fight, the same verse continues, "but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them... for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." The subsequent verses instruct the Muslims to grant asylum to any member of the pagan tribe/army who asks for it, and again reminds that "as long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God loves the righteous."

There ya go, I've shown you how the false quotations are spread, and what actually the Quran says in those cases. Any verse that is quoted out of context misses the whole point of the message of the Qur'an. Nowhere in the Qur'an any support for indiscriminate slaughter, the killing of non-combatants, or murder of innocent persons in 'payback' for another people's alleged crimes, or non-believers who haven't done anything to you. I assure ya, you won't find it in the Quran. Bare in mind that unlike a few religions, like the Jewish sacred scriptures you seemed to mention which appeared to have a few with some form of secrecy, Islam only has one glorious scripture, and that's the Quran. If anything contradicts it, its readily written off. Quran is the highest authority of Islam and equal to none. And its open for everyone to look into.




To finish off, the entire Islamic teachings on your subject can be summed up within these two wordings;

"It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things), and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

God does not forbid you, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just." (Qur'an 60:7-8)

^ The second part of the verse pretty much crystal clearly says to deal with the unbelievers, who don't oppress us, kindly and justifiably.

More questions?




Edited by xx__Ace__xx - 17 June 2010 at 12:26pm

elijah-boy wrote: :TO CHRYSALIS ---- That is reasonable. It is basically saying "If you're uncomfortable with the laws of the country you're living in, consider living somewhere else where you can live the life you see as a best fit for yourself. PLEASE point me to: a. lines in quran that say so b. if not found in quran please specify where this information comes from. c. If "a" is not an option but "b" is I would appreciate if you (or somebody else) can guarantee that quran dosen't say otherwise - that infidels should be considered as enemy, their laws should not be respected, and basically they should be killed.

So lets approach this one issue at a time. InshAllah everything you ask has a legitimate and valid reasoning behind it, some of the information you have is out-of-context, other is simply not true, but well like I said you cannot be blamed for it. I appreciate that you are trying to get your information straight from the source and trying to keep an open mind. I can only help with the issues I have read about or can research, so I may not be able to help you with all of your questions. However I hope that you still keep an open mind about the questions we cannot help you with.

I hope that Ace has inshAllah helped you with "Point c" by posting the Qur'anic verses that talk about the sanctity of human life. If there are still some things you wish to be clarified, pl post those.



First of all its important to relay that most (if not all) of Islamic injunctions and laws are based on the "utilitarian principle" i.e. maxiumum possible benefit for the maximum number of people. For that reason, Islamic Law attempts to protect the society and ensure that there is peace and stability in the society. Islam does not only aim for benefit for the 'muslim' but humanity as a whole.

This is why Muslims are encouraged to be productive elements of a society and encouraged to work with society rather than against it. This includes a non-Muslim society which a Muslim may be a part of. UNLESS of course there is tyranny and injustice being meted by the society or government. In that case it becomes a religious duty of Muslims to either

1) act against it physically (do something about it)

If a Muslim is unable to do 1), they are supposed to:

2) act against it verbally (voice out their protest and make it known that they do not condone those acts and are thus not part of it)

If a Muslim is afraid to do 2) then they are at the least supposed to:

3) Detest the act within their heart

and according to Prophet Muhammad, (3) is the weakest level of Faith i.e. Imaan. But even if the Muslim cannot do 1 & 2 due to fear, circumstances etc (weakness of faith) that is the least they can do. This is based on a Hadith i.e. saying of Prophet Muhammad. Islam considers Hadith to be an authentic part of Islamic Law.

I mentioned the above points because I had to of course point out an exception when Muslims may have to go against society or break the law of the land. (for the greater good ofcourse) FYI, the above applies to both Muslim & nonmuslim societies.

In all other cases, Muslims obey the law of the land. Copy-Pasting here:

The Covenant of Security

The Islamic religion commands believers to obey the laws of the land they live in, even if it be one ruled by nonbelievers.  Muslim jurists consider citizenship (or visa) to be a covenant (aqd) held between the citizen (or visa holder) and the state, one which guarantees safe passage/security (amaan) in exchange for certain obligations (such as obeying the laws of the land); covenants are considered sacredly binding in Islam.  The Quran commands:

And fulfill every covenant.  Verily, you will be held accountable with regard to the covenants. (Quran, 17:34)

The Quran condemns those who break covenants as not being true believers:

It is not the case that every time they make a covenant, some party among them throws it aside. Nay! The truth is most of them believe not. (Quran, 2:100)

The Islamic prophet Muhammad described the religious hypocrite as follows:

When he enters into a covenant, he proves treacherous. (Sahih al-Bukhari)

Citizenship (and visa) is called in Islamic legal parlance as a �covenant of security� (aqd al-aman).  For over a thousand years, Muslim scholars have rigorously affirmed the binding nature of the covenant of security.  This covenant of security can be of two types:

(1) a contractual agreement or

(2) a customary understanding.

Naturalized citizens in the United States enter into a contractual agreement with the government when they declare the oath of allegiance, as follows:

�I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same��

A Muslim is obliged to keep to his word, and thus this oath is religiously binding upon him.

Natural born citizens, on the other hand, do not utter any such oath, so they fall under the second category under Islamic law.  The covenant of security is considered for them a customary understanding, in the sense that even though they did not physically say an oath or sign a document of loyalty, it is understood that there exists between the citizen and the government a covenant of security; this, i.e. customary understanding, is considered by Islamic law to be just as binding as the contractual agreement.  There is no difference between the two.

So just based upon the importance of "covenants" and "religious importance of having given our word" , Muslims have to obey the laws. There are other reasoning as well. There are numerous cases from Prophet Muhammad's time when he instructed his followers to carry out their contracts with non-Muslims. He himself fulfilled all his treaties and covenants with the non-Muslims. In fact I cannot even stress properly how important it is for a Muslim to be honest and stick to his/her "word". Hypocrisy and being a "Liar" are considered one of the worst sins and attributes a Muslim can have. I believe I read a hadith that said something like 'Lying' and 'Faith' cannot remain in a believer together.

During his time, due to persecution by the pagans, Prophet Muhammad allowed (and even encouraged) Muslims to migrate to safer lands. Muslims asked an Abyssinian Christian King for sanctuary, and integrated into the Abyssinian society as peaceful citizens.

Another example from Prophet Muhammad's Life  - the Treaty of Hudaibyah:

Why I am mentioning this:  if a Muslim State or government enters into a contract of Treaty with a non-muslim government they are to carry it through no matter what sentiments/feelings they have towards it. The Muslims of Medinah signed this Treaty with the Pagans of Meccah. One of the clauses of the treaty was:

"If a Quraysh person comes to Muhammad (i.e., after accepting Islam) without the permission of his guardian, Muhammad shall return him to them, but if one of the Muhammad�s people come to the Quraysh, he shall not be returned. "

Many Muslims felt humiliated by this clause, since it was clearly unfair. Yet they still followed it. Interestingly, a Muslim in Meccah embraced Islam, managed to escape and enter Medinah. He came to a Prophet and begged to be allowed to stay. Many Muslims wanted to keep him yet the Prophet stood by his word, even though it grieved him - and returned him to Mecca per clause. Thus even though the escapee was on Muslim soil, and in their hands - the Muslims upheld their contract to the non-muslims. (This is a very common tradition, however I do not have its reference/hadith number, if any reader does . . . please do post. JazakAllah)

Well Elijah, I hope the 'sources' and 'references' you asked for as proof helped. Will wait for you to respond with any further queries/comments before moving on with other issues.

Information taken from:

http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/11/major-nidal-hasan/

Another relevant read:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1634517.stm

Treaty of Hudaibya:
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/treaty28.html











Edited by Chrysalis - 18 June 2010 at 6:56am