Is Islam true? |
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AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
Posted: 22 February 2006 at 6:29pm | ||||
Thanks bro Melco for your kind response though incomplete and therefore unsatisfactory.
Edited by AhmadJoyia |
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AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
Posted: 22 February 2006 at 7:12pm | ||||
Edited by AhmadJoyia |
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Servetus
Senior Member Male Joined: 04 April 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2109 |
Posted: 23 February 2006 at 9:38am | ||||
Welcome, Tim, and you are by no means an intrusion. �If faith requires no proof, why do all religious arguments and religious intellectual struggles require and insist on using materialist evidence to make a point?� I am not sure that I fully understand the question, but, to my view, the opening premise, that faith requires no proof, might be called into question. Although the term is at this point somewhat ill-defined, faith, it seems to me, at least a type of it, does not invariably operate in the absence of proof. Consider, e.g., that Judaism recalls the revelation of the Torah to Moses on Mt. Sinai, an event which it contends was in actuality witnessed by the children of Israel, and early Christians broadcast, at the risk of both life and limb, the resurrection of Jesus. Islam, for its part, presents an apparently illiterate prophet as having received, or recited, what stands to this day as the definitive work of Arabic Literature. In short, then, the faithful also inhabit the material world. �Those who do not believe in material as primary and absolute, resort to it in order to exemplify or justify the existence of something they readily admit cannot be proved.� I enjoyed reading Ahmad�s response to this paragraph. I might add that it is no doubt difficult for Judaism, at this point, and again as an example, to prove that Moses existed and that he received the Torah. Does memory, myth, legend, etc., count for nothing? �If an 'element' which somone believes exists, is not on the Periodic Table of Elements, it is not possible to demonstrate the existence of that new 'element' if that 'element' has not been discovered, but only described by reference to those 'aliments' which have been discovered. I'm open to persuasion.� I don�t know. This I will say, and despite especially modernist objections to the contrary, I am rather of the opinion that there still exists a relationship between physics and metaphysics and between chemistry and alchemy. I am not one to disparage the at times keen faculties of the ancients, my forefathers and yours (this is not to suggest that you are one to disparage them either), and I do, I hope, remain open to persuasion as well. Servetus Edited by Servetus |
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Melco
Guest Group Joined: 20 February 2006 Status: Offline Points: 107 |
Posted: 23 February 2006 at 12:23pm | ||||
Ahmed, I am sorry if my words fail in relation to God, but God's inner
nature is beyond the capacity of the human mind. I do not intend to
challenge the biblical scholars, certainly having studied this more
than me, they are closer to the truth. (By the way, the Old Testament,
not the NT took about 1000 years to be put together.)
Ahmed, let me very clear, Christians believe that God is One. You think because we speak of trinity, that we believe of three gods, that isn't the case. We are very particular that these persons comprise one Being. Not everything is comprehensible: I love reading about physics, but it would be sillly of me to then assert that because I don't understand how quantum leaps happen, they can't happen. Muhammad pedaled as a master trader/salesman would a great story for the gulable, but his idea of Judaism and Christianity is so far from the historic truth, that I find hard to believe that there are a billion people that believe it. (Obviously, I realise many are coerced to remain a muslim, eg in Egypt). The Qu'ran while it borrows from stories Muhammad heard, shows a distorted idea of these religions. |
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DavidC
Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
Posted: 23 February 2006 at 12:38pm | ||||
In my experience, it is only AFTER one demonstrates faith that the grace
of God rewards them with the proof. This is generally referred to in Christianity as sanctification.
This is, in fact, how the rare earth elements were discovered. Their existence and composition was induced based on a belief in the periodic table as it existed in the fifties. Scientists then proceeded to discover and create them in the real world. |
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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Melco
Guest Group Joined: 20 February 2006 Status: Offline Points: 107 |
Posted: 23 February 2006 at 1:14pm | ||||
In the name of the Father, and of the Son and the Holy Spirit...
Private revelations are not required for salvation. Public revelation is intended to express everything about God and everything necessary for our salvation. You are latching onto words, but private here, means that it isn't necessary to believe in or know about private revelations in order to achieve salvation - they are nice to knows, not need to knows, though they may assist in giving an indication of God's Will for a particular time and place. The notion of Trinity can be found obliquely even in the Old Testament, eg Genesis 1 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness Genesis 18 1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, [a] do not pass your servant by. (Notice he speaks to the three and says "my lord") In a sense the trinity is hidden from sight in the old testament. In Mark's Gospel (yes, one of the Gospels you claimed erroneously had no reference to Christ's divinity) , you find a public acknowledgement by God of who he was. Mark1, 10,As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." (The Voice represents God the Father, Jesus is called the Son, the Spirit is the Holy Spirit) Christ's Divinity in Mark's Gospel Oh, how does Mark begin the Gospel? 1The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. And again 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." 6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7"Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" 8Immediately
Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their
hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? 10But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . ." He said to the paralytic, 11"I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." 12He
got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This
amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, "We have never seen
anything like this!" One more example, Mark 14 Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,[f] the Son of the Blessed One?" 62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." 63The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?" The Blasphemy clearly was to claim to be God
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Angela
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2555 |
Posted: 23 February 2006 at 1:35pm | ||||
Oh, yeah, here's one Sister Christian who's going to stay out of the Trinity arguement. Jesus Christ, the Son of God was not God, he couldn't sit at the right hand if he was one and the same....
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ak_m_f
Senior Member Joined: 15 October 2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3272 |
Posted: 23 February 2006 at 2:03pm | ||||
Now we really know why you are here, Good luck in converting people on the forum. |
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