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fredifreeloader View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 11:52am

"In all of my many years as a Christian I was taught that men are imperfect because of Adam's sin." 

this is correct.  but it does not mean that we bear his sin.  we are not born guilty, we become guilty through our own sin, the tendency for which we inherit from adam, and will bear our own sin unless we get it dealt with as you outlined. 

what you say about adam being punished by expulsion from the garden shows how christian doctrine finds an echo of sorts in islam.  if we were pure and spotless at birth, then we would be admitted to the garden straight away.  the fact that we are not indicates that allah is also punishing us  because of adams sin

we do not find infant baptism in the holy scriptures

for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Mishmish View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 11:52am

As far as Moab and the story of Ruth, as a Christian you found it very disturbing and sick that temporary marriage was allowed at one time by the Prophet Mohammed(PBUH), yet Christianity is full of stories of things that would be considered sick and disturbing today.

It was just an interesting sidebar, to me at least, that Jesus, God in human form, is believed to be descended from such sins. Yes, all men sin, but not necessarily in such fashion.

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 2:24pm

No, Allah is not punishing us because of Adam's sin because men were created to be viscegerents of the earth. That was our purpose, so we are fulfilling that purpose.

In Islam we do not believe that God created man for companionship, as God is not in need of anything.

Allah punished Adam by expelling him from the Garden. Mankind was always meant to be earthly creatures.

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

No, Allah is not punishing us because of Adam's sin because men were created to be viscegerents of the earth. That was our purpose, so we are fulfilling that purpose.

In Islam we do not believe that God created man for companionship, as God is not in need of anything.

Allah punished Adam by expelling him from the Garden. Mankind was always meant to be earthly creatures.

wo-up - this is suddenly getting very weird indeed.  are you saying that the garden was not on earth?

if so, and if it was a punishment to be expelled from the garden to earth, then how can you say that man was always meant to be an earthly creature? why was he not placed on earth in the first instance?

if man was created to be vice-regent of the earth, then this means that he must have been created a sinner in order to be expelled from the garden to earth in order to fulfill the purpose of God as vice-regent of the earth.  so God created man imperfect?

for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 4:11pm

If Adam had been created as a perfect man, he could not have been tempted, could he? Adam was a man, and no man is perfect.

Allah states in the Quran:

2:30 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

This is clearly man's purpose and reason for being created. If Allah had meant for man to remain in the Garden, then He would have stated He was creating a viscegerent of the Garden, not earth. Allah knew that Adam would choose to disobey, because Allah(SWT) knows everything that will happen. Adam had complete free will, and he and Eve alone bore the consequences of their actions. Allah did not force Adam to disobey, but He knew it would happen.

Most scholars believe that man's descent to earth happened the way it did as lessons to men. It was meant to teach man that Satan is the enemy of man, that he caused Adam and Eve to be tempted and expelled from Paradise so that by avoiding Satan and evil men can return to Paradise. They also learned that Allah punishes those who disobey Him, and that submission to Allah is the only way back to Paradise. Finally, Adam and Eve learned to ask for forgiveness from Allah, and that Allah is Oft-Forgiving for those who repent with sincerity. These lessons were necessary for mankind's viscegerency on earth.

 The Quran states:

2:36 Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."

We do not know where the Garden, or Paradise was/is, but it is clear that it was not on the earth as they were sent to earth.  All ye people refers to Adam, Eve, and Satan who were in the Garden together.

 



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 4:24pm
Do you believe that Jesus and Adam were perfect? Was Eve perfect also? If so, what could they possibly have been tempted with?
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2006 at 9:40am
Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

As far as Moab and the story of Ruth, as a Christian you found it very disturbing and sick that temporary marriage was allowed at one time by the Prophet Mohammed(PBUH), yet Christianity is full of stories of things that would be considered sick and disturbing today.

yes youre right, it is.  but none of it decreed by our blessed Lord 

It was just an interesting sidebar, to me at least, that Jesus, God in human form, is believed to be descended from such sins. Yes, all men sin, but not necessarily in such fashion.

no, people are not descended from sins, we are descended from other people.  and sin is sin is sin.  it does not matter what form it takes.  God hates it all, and who are we to decide what is worse than the other

for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fredifreeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2006 at 10:08am

ys, mish, i well appreciate what youre saying about the foreknowledge of God and the free will of man.  so the thing is on two levels.  the fall of man ties in with the purposes of God with regard to the idea of vice-regency on earth.  in the bible, adam is created on earth, the garden is on earth, and he was to tend the garden, and have dominion over the species.  but he fell through sin, but this also ties in with the purposes of God, with regard to showing forth his grace in salvation through Christ.

and yet a fall is a fall. and the punishment was expulsion, a punishment applied to the whole of humanity.  when adam and eve were expelled, the whole of humanity was expelled, none have been readmitted, that is obvious (maybe you think you are readmitted when you die, but im talking about this life)  and so we conclude that adams sin affects all of us, irrespective of what the purposes of God might have been, not that we are guilty of his particular sin, but that we all inevitably come to sin

yes adam and eve were created perfect, but this must be qualified.  they were perfect human beings.  this is not the same as the perfection of Christ, whose perfection was divine, and who could not sin.  this may be a bad analogy, but a perfect dog is not worth the same as a human being (even one who is not perfect)

for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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