IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Islam for non-Muslims
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Basic Islamic Questions  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Basic Islamic Questions

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 34567 8>
Author
Message
StephenC View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group

Joined: 16 September 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 264
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StephenC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2006 at 6:22pm
"Prophethood requires only three things, message, miracle and purpose."
 
What were the miracles of Muhammad and Smith?
 
The thread topic is about Islam, not Mormonism. Please stay on topic or your contributions will be edited.


Edited by Andalus
Back to Top
StephenC View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group

Joined: 16 September 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 264
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StephenC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2006 at 6:26pm
Originally posted by Andalus Andalus wrote:

[QUOTE=StephenC]

I do not question that God exists.  However, I do question anyone who claims to have revelations from God.

So you do not believe that Gd has given messages to man?

[quote]

I clear said that I "question anyone who claims to have revelations from God" not that I do not believe God has given messages to man!"

"I find this interesting given the amount of conjecture and specualtion you have used thus far."

Have you given even one verifiable fact?

"Islam does not ask you to accept its claims on blind faith, and no religion should be based upon it.

Facts as suspect to interpretation."

Okay give me a provable fact.

Back to Top
StephenC View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group

Joined: 16 September 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 264
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StephenC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2006 at 6:30pm

I am merely trying to resolve differences between different revelations which appear to be in conflict.

I don't think anyone would say that we should accept it as truth when anyone claims to be the "Prophet of God."

How do we seperate the false from the true?

Back to Top
StephenC View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group

Joined: 16 September 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 264
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StephenC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2006 at 5:04am

It seems that one of the major differences between Christianity and Islam is that Islam put forths that Christ was a prophet and not part of God.

If Christ is not the Son of God then I would agree that he should not be put equal to or greater than God.

But what about Muhammad?  Has he been elevated to status equal or greater than God?

Maybe not in written script, but what about in practice?

I am concerned about the recent uproar about the Muhammad cartoons.  I agree they were offensive, but I am distressed that there was no similiar uproar against the almost weekly cartoons of God!

For example when former Texas Govenor Anne Richards died there was a cartoon of Richards reporting to Heaven and God (sitting at a desk) telling his Angel, "Clear my schedule, this is going to be good."

With no discredit to Richards, but according to the Jewish, Christian, Moslem, and Mormon religions, this was clearly blasphemy!

Yet not a peep in protest from anyone!

A review of the newspapers comic page shows almost weekly cartoon using images said to be that of God.  Yet never a peep of complaint from anyone!

Christ (who is recognized by Christians, Moslems, and Mormons as a messenger of God or greater) is daily discredited in cartoons, writings, and "art" without a peep from anyone.

So is Muhammad held in higher esteem than God?  If not, then why no complaints?

Back to Top
Andalus View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group

Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1187
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2006 at 7:23am
Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

"Please give the requirements for proof of prophethood."

Good question.  Maybe there is no proof of prophethood.  Anyone that wants to claim a revelation can.  So do we accept all who claim to be prophets?

Rhetorical question. What I am trying to establish is a criteria that satisfies you. You do not believe someone was a prophet, so who do you believe was a prophet and what is the evidence?

 

Quote

Okay.  There is just as much proof of Muhammad being a prophet as there is for Joseph Smith.

I am not here to argue for or against Joseph Smith. Lets stay on topic. What proof is there that Prophet MUhammad (saw) was not a prophet?

Your attempt to at continuously trying to mix Joseph Smith into this discussion relfects masterful obfuscation.

Quote   

Wait, didn't Muhammad claim to be the last prophet?  If that is true then Smith is a false prophet.  If Smith is a true prophet then Muhammad's claim to be the last prophet.

Yes.

Quote

And is Jesus' statement in Revelation 22:18-21 is true then both Muhammad and Smith are wrong.

The book of revelation is an extremely cryptic writing that has no real relavence. The early Christians were mixed about its importance, and the Church has never been able to give an accurate interpretation due to its extreme use of obscure symbols and extremely implicit statements.

So the question is begged: Why should anyone care what revelations says?

[quote]

So how do we tell a true prophet from a false prophet?

I ask again (hoping to get an answer) how do we know that Muhammad was visited by the Angel Gabriel?

[/QUOTE

How juvenile. I asked you to give me a criteria for prophethood.

1) Prophets will not lie about matters of Gd, revelation, and what Gd has said.

2) If Prophet Muhammad was a prophet, then he would not have lied about matters of Gd, revelation, and what Gd said.

3) Being a Prophet and lying about an event as described above are mutally exclusive. One cannot exist with the other.

4) You want to know how do we know he was a prophet.

5) I asked you, since you do not believe he was, what is the criteria is to believe someone is a prophet.

6) You proposed a rhetorical question as a strawman to remove yourself from the point.

7) Now you want to know how we can know if the Prophet (saw) was really visted by an angel.

But if someone is a prophet, he would not have lied, and if he were wrong, Gd would have told him. So we are back to the foundation: Proof of Prophethood which deflected from.

Since you cannot tell me what your criteria is to accept a person as a prophet, then you have no solid ground to reject someone as a prophet.

With all due respect, your behavior is entirely fallacious. You have just moved in a circle, while trying very hard to avoid being directly involved with exposing your own beliefs and reasons for your beliefs, which are directly related and relevant to your skepticism. Your slight of hand sophistry and great effort in avoiding a direct discussion spells out "evangelical".

I asked you who you think is a prophet, and you have given me silence.

You cannot blame me for now having skepticism about you, as your behavior thus far has been less than rhetorically honest.

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
Back to Top
Andalus View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group

Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1187
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2006 at 8:15am
Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

Originally posted by Andalus Andalus wrote:

Originally posted by StephenC StephenC wrote:

I do not question that God exists.  However, I do question anyone who claims to have revelations from God.

So you do not believe that Gd has given messages to man?

Quote

I clear said that I "question anyone who claims to have revelations from God" not that I do not believe God has given messages to man!"

So why do you conintue to hide your beliefs? Do not be affraid friend, be affirmed. Since you are able to reject someone from prophethood, then please, give us your criteria to accept someone.

You do not need all of these word games and semantical nonsense. Just be brave.

[quote]

 

"I find this interesting given the amount of conjecture and specualtion you have used thus far."

Have you given even one verifiable fact?

Yes, the numerous problems with your rhetoric. The problems with your attempted comparison argument (argument being use very loosely in that case), your great desire to remove yourself from the exhcange of ideas. This is a discussion, not an interrogation.

I will not sit back and just let you play the skeptical song while I dance. It is an extremely bad trick and in poor tase, and speaks volumes about your intentions.

[quote]

"Islam does not ask you to accept its claims on blind faith, and no religion should be based upon it.

Facts as suspect to interpretation."

Okay give me a provable fact.

You cannot prove a fact. You can only seek confidence in the fact. You keep trying to use the skeptic's argument which is actually kind of funny.

1) You have asserted that Prophet MUhammad (saw) was not a prophet

2) You believe there are/were prophets

3) Since you made the claim that he is not a prophet, then bring your evidence that supports your claim.

a) what is your criteria for determining prophethood

To save you time, I will be frank.

In conclusion, I will state that I have provided facts in that your presentation of your "argument" (used extremely loosely but for the sake of reference) is erroneous. I have also observed and stated your attempts at deflection when asked for clarification.

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
Back to Top
StephenC View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group

Joined: 16 September 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 264
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StephenC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2006 at 10:58am

I have not said anyone is NOT a prophet.  I have merely said we should ask for some kind of proof that a person is a true prophet from God and not some Jim Bakker (of Jim and Tammy Bakker) type of prophet.  There have been many false prophets claiming to be speaking from God.

I have pointed out that Smith and Muhammad both claim the same thing and are believed by millions to be a prophet from God, yet some of their statements are contradictary.

If I claimed to be a prophet from God would you accept that or would you demand proof?

I was told it was not blind faith.  Ok, why do you think that Muhammad is the last prophet from God?  Is it just because he said so?

You, Muhammad, and millions of others claim he was the last prophet of God.  There are millions more that claim he was not.  Do we take a worldwide vote on it?

I just want a verifiable fact that he is the Last Prophet.  That is no word game.  I do find problems with the history of Muhammad as published by IslamiCity.com.  But I am trying to be opened minded about it.

One thing other than 'he said he was' is all I am asking.  Is Islam so weak that such a question is so difficult?

Back to Top
StephenC View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group

Joined: 16 September 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 264
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StephenC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2006 at 11:10am

I just read your post about ending the Muhammad and Smith discussion.

I have also read your response to where I quoted two verses of the Qur'an that seemed in conflict.

I realize this is not my discussion board and if you want to do the "it's my ball if you don't let me win, we are not playing" attitude, my trying to learn about the Qur'an, Muhammad, and my questions about it is rather pointless.

I will, unless you ban me, occasionally check to see if anyone can provide one verifiable fact to support Muhammad's claim that he is the Last Prophet.

Until this happens, I suspect this will be my last post.  Since I am leaning towards that outcome, please let me extend my appreciation for the short time I was here and the for the most part, honest discussions.

I did learn that some of my conception about Islam and Muhammad were wrong, but some apparently are right.

I will continue to believe in one GOD, Heaven, Angels, Satan, and Hell.

Maybe when we all get to Heaven, we can all have a waking since I don't think any earth religion is totally correct or totally wrong.

Peace and Salvation on all those who Love and Serve God!

Stephen

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 34567 8>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.