Sura IV-93

Andalus,

Let me add that there is a prior assumtion that I am using, that it is more moral to apply good to a larger population than to a smaller population.  This seems obvious to me, but what so you think?

Sid

Well, thank you for telling me what you thought.  I am disappointed, but not surprised.  I had previously been told that Muslims would never permit a critical analysis of their religion and would never critize the Koran.  This forum disproves the first part and you are proof of the second part.  But, I do know Muslims that do critize the Koran and do recommend changes.  They all, save one, live outside of predominantly Muslim countries and none is likely to ever be in print, and for good reason.  If they printed such a critical analysis in a predominantly Muslim country, they would be arrested and executed.  And if that were done elsewhere, they might be murdered; for example, Van

Gogh & Ayaan Ali. And Muslims who explore sources of morality other than Islam are threatened with death, which is a little shocking for someone that believes in the freedoms of speech and religion.

Without a critical analysis of Islam, Muslims are nailed (condemned), forever, to a moral code developed 1300 years ago for dessert nomads.  While it was, surely, an advancement, 1300 years ago, lately it has been an impediment to development for the Muslim culture.  For example, where have the great ideas in political science come from; such as, John Locke and democracy, not from Islam?  (The Bush administration is very ignorant about the suitability of a democratic government for a Muslim country, it is not going to happen; besides, who gave him the right to impose any kind of government anywhere in the world)  Where have all the developments in the social sciences come from; such as, the work of Clara Barton and psychiatry, not from Islam?   Not to mention my favorite area, science and mathematics.  Where have all the major advancements come from for physics, biology, geology and mathematics come from, not Islam.  Where do the vast majority of published research papers come from, not from Muslim countries?  Where do most of the people that win the Nobel prizes come from, not from Islamic countries?  When a Muslim writes about math, it is usually about arithmetic and the development of numbers which occurred over a thousand years ago.  What Muslim (unless he resided in the West) even knew the Poincare Conjecture was finally proved, last year?  What Muslim even cared!?  Do you detect a pattern?  Is there something wrong?  If a Muslim wants to be receive an education in any of these areas, where does he go, not to a Muslim school?

Muslim fundamentalist are ALL striving for the past!  But, I do see hope, if there is enough time.  I believe that the Muslim faith that will develop or evolve in the United States, but not in Europe, will be a much better religion.  I give you the Islamic Center of Southern California as an example.  Islam needs a reformation.

So much for Sura IV-93.  I enjoyed it and I am out of here.

Sid

Well, thank you for telling me what you thought.  I am disappointed, but not surprised.  I had previously been told that Muslims would never permit a critical analysis of their religion and would never critize the Koran.  This forum disproves the first part and you are proof of the second part.  But, I do know Muslims that do critize the Koran and do recommend changes.  They all, save one, live outside of predominantly Muslim countries and none is likely to ever be in print, and for good reason.  If they printed such a critical analysis in a predominantly Muslim country, they would be arrested and executed.

I am surprised that you have resorted to hyperbole. You brought up too many points that carry so many assumptions I would have to take a great deal of time to deal with them all. In rhetoric, this is called �dumping�, and is quite typical of an outgoing contribution.

1) Islam has a history of critical analysis, in fact, the criticism was from within. The criticism was exegetical, it was also various theological views that were novel notions of God and theology and the faith itself, which, through debate, was shown to be �heretical�. Furthermore, Islam has already experienced its period of philosophical inquiry, and it not only survived in tact without any blemish, but it was through philosophical inquiry that the door was shut. Christianity did not survive its period of philosophical inquiry, and it brought the �age of enlightenment�, which brought us fascism, communism, capitalism, socialism, and two world wars, and the molestation of the world�s resources including the influence of government leaders who will allow western corporations to plunder their land.

2) Criticism is one thing, rude diatribe consisting of recycled howlers, juvenile propositions, and generalizations are a very different matter.   

And if that were done elsewhere, they might be murdered; for example, Van Gogh & Ayaan Ali. And Muslims who explore sources of morality other than Islam are threatened with death, which is a little shocking for someone that believes in the freedoms of speech and religion.

There is a difference between a scholar who puts forth a work that questions a claim in Islam (the Quran itself puts itself open to criticism when it challenges its reader), an argument based upon sound research and sound education on the topic, vs parlor tricks such as the childish rants of both Ayaan and Gogh, who are propped up by the intellectually bankrupt in a huge game of charades, as if they hold any serious credibility.

Freedom of speech without wisdom is a tool for the foolish. Freedom of speech must be contained with wisdom. The double faced chicanery of the west is astounding. You all cry out about freedom of speech and the threat of Islam when a group purposely mocks Muslims, but if anyone places any serious inquiry or debate about Zionism, Israel, its relationship with the US, or even the holocaust, the west jumps up and down and accuses the authors or speakers of racism, and insensitivity.

Please do not try and take the high ground with western civilization. It is insulting to everyone�s intelligence.

Without a critical analysis of Islam, Muslims are nailed (condemned), forever, to a moral code developed 1300 years ago for dessert nomads.  While it was, surely, an advancement, 1300 years ago, lately it has been an impediment to development for the Muslim culture.

You are ignorant of its history. Islam survived its self critical period. You are trying to view Islam through Eurocentric lenses. It is not in need of another self critical period, it is in need of removing itself from the influences of post colonialism, the corporate globalists, and the industrial military complex that enforces the rules of global corporations. Islam also needs for its followers to return to the values that made Islamic Civilization thrive.

 

For example, where have the great ideas in political science come from; such as, John Locke and democracy, not from Islam?  (The Bush administration is very ignorant about the suitability of a democratic government for a Muslim country, it is not going to happen; besides, who gave him the right to impose any kind of government anywhere in the world)

That�s like me going back in time to 10^th century Christian Europe, and asking about great ideas in medicine, or one of the other contributions Islamic Civilization had made. Your question has assumptions buried in it. Knowledge is cumulative, so obviously, one would find a thinker, who had access to the summations of past thinkers spanning centuries, whose ideas would surpass those of the past. Islam did have its political thinkers, and they too used the resources available to them from the past, and their thoughts were novel in their day.

It is interesting that you bring up John Lock and democracy.

1)      Where did John Lock�s writings come into play when the US dreamt up manifest destiny and annihilated hundreds of Native American tribes? Or created a cheap labor force through the development of an underclass of Africans and their descendents?

2)      Where did John Lock�s writings come into play during operation �Ajax� when the US and British combined resources to promote terrorism in Iran and frame the �democratically� elected, legitimate leader? Ask Mohammed Mossadegh about democracy? He was fairly elected, but it did not work for the west, the sacred carriers of democracy and the writings of John Lock. Imagine that, the west using terrorism, before Islamic civilization had even heard of it, to disrupt democracy in Iran. Simply riotous. Your hyperbole is baseless.

 

Where have all the developments in the social sciences come from; such as, the work of Clara Barton and psychiatry, not from Islam?

Social sciences? Can you give me a single contribution to the well being of humanity from the western social sciences?

Clara Barton? Muslims do not document their list of deeds to take credit. Islam considers it a sin.

 

Not to mention my favorite area, science and mathematics.  Where have all the major advancements come from for physics, biology, geology and mathematics come from, not Islam.  Where do the vast majority of published research papers come from, not from Muslim countries?  Where do most of the people that win the Nobel prizes come from, not from Islamic countries?  When a Muslim writes about math, it is usually about arithmetic and the development of numbers which occurred over a thousand years ago.  What Muslim (unless he resided in the West) even knew the Poincare Conjecture was finally proved, last year?  What Muslim even cared!?  Do you detect a pattern?

Yes, I detect a pattern of creating complex questions, and using these questions to try and allude to your conclusion (hand waving), which is �non causa pro causa�.

1)      Show that the answers to your questions, and the conclusion you have drawn about Islam in this thread, have a direct correlation.

2)      You are �hand waving� with your list of �complex� questions. Hand waving only reveals that you have to make huge leaps in your thinking. In essence, you are trying to force your prejudice.

In the end, this is what your argument looks like: Islam does not change (though you are silent about the specific changes required) which is the cause of Muslims not publishing works of science or contributing anything of value. Unless you can show this is true, it is pure �irrational rubbish�.

 

 

Is there something wrong?  If a Muslim wants to be receive an education in any of these areas, where does he go, not to a Muslim school?

Once again, you are hand waving, and this topic has nothing to do with verse 93? Ever since I gave you a solid and rational reply to your opinions about the verse, you have tried to sneak in �strawmen� arguments, which are simply to deflect from the actual topic in question. It is unfortunate that you have resorted to this.

If you want to discuss issue with Islamic Civilization in the 20^th century, then you should start another thread, furthermore, to derive any real conclusion from such a topic, we must refrain from using �complex questions� to allude to our conclusion, and show how your proposition is true. Please prove the correlation that you have just hand waved.

Muslim fundamentalist are ALL striving for the past!  But, I do see hope, if there is enough time.  I believe that the Muslim faith that will develop or evolve in the <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on">United States</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>, but not in Europe, will be a much better religion.  I give you the Islamic Center of Southern California as an example.  Islam needs a reformation.

 

What you hope is that Islam becomes as watered down such that it allows �secularists, missionaries, and free thinkers�, to manipulate it to their own end and agenda. The problems that have arisen in traditional Muslims lands are due to the region moving away from its roots and embracing the ideas of the west. This social experiment has been an utter disaster, and Muslims will only take back their civilization when they are ready to turn to themselves and solve their own problems. This will come about quicker if the west would stop meddling in the affairs of other countries.

So much for Sura IV-93.  I enjoyed it and I am out of here.   Sid

Yes, due to your strawmen arguments, I too must concur and exclaim, �so much for verse 93�!