Islam and Hinduism

Thanks for your elaborted reply, and shall try hard to digest as much as possible. If not, certainly like your help to understand more about it.

bharatiya wrote: Dear Ahmed Joyia, .....I suppose according to Islam, Allah created Man, and Man created disharmony and Allah is different from Man as Allah is pure.  But for us the sum total of everything is Brahman.....

I see your explanation about Brahman which is surprisingly similar to what we have for Allah, however, about Islam your are not very correct. We also beleive that Allah is everything, He is the begining and He is the last and there is none equal to Him. We also beleive that since He is the Ultimate creator of everything (one of the famous 99 attributes of Allah which you can easily find on any of the many Islamic websites), including good and bad, therefore it is not possible to think of evil out of His creation. However, He also created the "Free Will" among some of His creatures. Like humans or jinns etc to choose from right or wrong. Similarly, He permitted Satan to do whatever he likes to spread mischief on this earthly life but for a specific and limited time only called the day of judgement. On this day every living being who got died shall be raised again to account for his/her deeds. However, Allah sent His guidance to the mankind through His Prophets to guide them to identify the satan and not to get deviated through his traps of lurement. So, it is in this regard, we always ask the mercy of Allah against the evil designs of satan and we know He is All hearer and All listner, always.

2. For us, everything we percieve is 'Mithya'.  Which roughly translated to English, means "Illusion".(it needs a very lengthy explanation for this)

 There is no concept of illusion in Islam, however, because of temporary nature of this life, some people may call this life (metaphorically) to be the illusioin and real life begins when the result of the test on the day of judgement is decided as who goes where depending upon his deeds on this earth.

3. According to our Philosophy, Brahman has within himself what is called Maya.  Whatever exists, exists within Maya.  The minds and bodies of living things and lot other non-living things.  Maya consists of past, the present and the future.

It is little strange when someone tries to explain "the infinite" with finite one. We don't dare to define in this sense though we know that only Allah has created everything. He simply said "be" and everything got created on this command. That is it. In my view, no philosophical explanations are required as they all correspond to human conjectures which would ultimately remain conjectures and who would like to put his whole life on conjectures? I beleive in reality and facts define my life, there is very little room for conjectures so we always try to avoid conjectures that are based on absolutely no knowledge other than human extrapolational philosophies. 
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4. Brahman is the Absolute from which everything is projected.  Brahma is a part of Maya.  And so are all the other Dieties.[/Quote]

But you said Brahma is the creator. Isn't it? How could a projected being (creation) can be the creator of himself?

 

We consider Brahma and others for ritual purposes and for material progress.  Brahma and others are just like us.

why do you find it necessary to pray to Brahma? and why not to the Brahman who is the absolute where as you say Brahma is just like you? Why intermediaries are required that too you yourself say are bounded and limited?

They are just knowledgeable souls.  They know what the Truth is.  But they are still bounded souls.

So how could a "finite" being know about "infinite" more than any other "finite" beings that too, on such a large order of magnitude that finite being becomes the worthy of human worship? 

They help us to know the Truth.

 We, the muslims only ask help directly from the Brahman or Allah only. No intermediaries. Prophets came to humans for only and only this purpose. They never themselves were worthy of worship. Yes, they helped us to know about  Allah, but categorically told to pray only and only to Allah alone as He is the all listener and all hearer. he is closer to everyone more than anything else. Only one has to approach Him to ask for help and He listens to it, always.

It is said that if a person who is seeking the Truth dies without knowing It, the person goes to Brahma who in turn explains the person about the Truth.

So everyone out of them and getting born again (according to your philosophy) should have been the ultimate knowledgeable about truth in his rest of the lives. Yet we see almost 90% of ignorable population. By the way, who is "It is said" usually refered to in your statements? I am not clear on this and like you to reply. Anyhow, according to our belief, all dead are dead till the time they are resurrected on the day of Judgement. Before that day, since their examination on this earth is complete, they are awaiting result in their graves. Their souls return to Allah, and I personally don't know what happens to them and can't extrapolate with my limited human mind.

Most of our ancestors have promised to help us even after they die.  As you well know that death is only for the body.

So why need angels for help if the ancestors are there to do the same? Yes, I do know death is only for the body, however, its only this body which is considered alive in this world. In this world, no one calls souls to be alive either. Death is a transformation (in Islam its only for one time for all living beings) from this present world to the life hereafter.  

Dr. Hineman once said, "The dead don't die. They look on and help." Remember that, John.

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and who is this Dr. hineman and how do you believe him (or how is he  considered to be qualified to) to say what he says about the life hereafter? Do you regard him a prophet, an angel or what?

 

And Brahma is the most old of our ancestors.  Thats why it is said that the Vedas etc were given to us by Brahma.

Oh, no? What do you mean by this? I thought you implied Brahma was an angel......So, do you mean Brahma was a human being who lived on this very earth as any other human lived on and who, after death, became one of the helpers of humans on this earth like angels or etc? If that be the case then who decides who can help and who can't help the humans after their death. I mean, who regulates the mangement of this large pool of ancestoral helpers?

You may call Brahma by another name(I think you call him Khaaliq).  Thats the difference I see.

No. Not at all. The word "khaaliq" is an arabic word means "the creator" and as I said only Allah is the creator of everything and "Al-Khaaliq" is one of His attributes.

5. Our philosophy is very old, we have Four major divisions of time called as Yugas.  Satya, Dvapara, Treta and Kali.  Kali Yuga, the last of four Yugas, started in the year 3101 BC.  In our calendars this year is written "Kaliyuga satabhdam 5106".  So you can see how old our civilization is.  Hinduism did not start around 3200 BC.  It started a lot more millennia ago.  And exploitation of 'caste' system started around 3000 years ago.  Being so old a civilazation, 3000 years is very short time.

I see that... However, how do you substantiate your guess that it only started in Kali Yuga and not before? Also, I reserve my comments regarding the millinia history for some other occasion. But just for minor correction, 3200 BC means around 5000 years from now and not 3000 years, but ofcourse, as you said is very small as compared with millinnia history. However, as far modern history and its dating is concerned this is about the total history that historians in the world know of. From this perspective this exploitation is right from the origin of their historical knowledge. So you can't blame them who are ignorant of your millinnia history claim.

6. Krishna is not the brother of Rama, but is considered to be the reincarnation of Rama.  Krishna died in the year 3101 BC which coincides with the start of Kali Yuga.

But the movie that I saw, showed both of them at the same time togather (assuming that you are referring the same Kirshna and Rama who went to fight against lankan king). Anyhow, I definitely believe you more than my flimsy understanding from an entertainment movie. But how is he considered to be reincarnation of Rama and what are its implications for such beliefs? and all the more what is the concept of reincarnation? I didn't find it in the web site that you referred me or I may be missing it some how.

7. ......  .  We say "Mukkoti Devatalu" meaning "Three Crore Angels" or "30 Million Angels".

This is what we as muslims also believe, but may not be in exact numbers.

These angels know the Truth.

Yes, but how much of Truth? we muslims don't know of it. As we never try to extrapolate from our limited knowledge to explain "infinity" with the help of "finite" creatures. 

You may say they are good souls helping us.

Helping us in what sense? We muslims don't consider that they respond to our prayers or worship other than what Allah commands them to do for us. So all our prayers are from Allah and Allah alone and not to these creatures. By themselves they they have no power what so ever.

 

Hinduism is called a polytheistic religion as we pray to many angels.

Yes, I agree to your definition of polytheism. Any one praying to anyone other than Brahman or Allah may not be called monotheistic.

 

Vedas put our dieties at the same level as any other human being.  But we still use the word 'gods' all the time as it is widely accepted.

You mean people deliberately nagate their scriptures and yet they think it is worth it? This is indeed a strange logic.

8. I had been saying the Truth quite a number of times.  The Truth is about the Absolute.

Yes, I saw that but I wished you would have implored this "absolute' in your quotes more than from any humanistic traditions. Do you have any thing in the Vedas a direct quotes from this "absolute" or they are all full of human philosophies? 

Let me tell you an incident which happened very long ago.

Brother, is it an incident or a story, a folk lure story? If its an actual incident then I have a lot of question about it. About its authenticity, its nature and origin and all the more about its scientific validation. However if its a kind of moral story people usually narrate to make people understand a concept rather than its circumstantial details then I have no more questions and I can llisten to it without any reservations about it. But I then don't expect these kind of stuff in your Vedas. Kindly do provide your brief explanation on it. Also, kindly do fill in the blanks for "--" in your story.  

Edited by AhmadJoyia

bharatiya wrote: Yeah, you may say I am defending 'hinduism'.

But from whom? Anyhow, for me it  makes little difference what you call hinduism beside that most of the time you yourself slip into using words like "hindu relegion" etc. 

.....What happened needs a big explanation.  And you may not understand it. Lets put it simply.  Its because of Causality.  If we do bad, good will not follow.

Of course you mean to say this only about Brahmins who diverted the right path from actual hindu literature by keeping the other totally ignorant about it from last 5000 years. It were only they, the Brahmins, who remained custodians (forcefully) of the scriptures generations after generations since 3200 BC.

I am frank.  I don't know who 'percieved' the 'idea' first.

Then how do you confirm the authenticity of your scriptures? Any good moral writtings from billions of years what to say just millions of years, would not make a difference untill or unless it is authenticated from its original sources. Even in our daily day to day correspondance within literary circles it is the references that can make distinction between original and the gossips. Otherwise, these is no way to distinguish between the truth the historical books carry from the myth being added to it generation by generation slowly and gradually. Who knows how much??

I have already quoted the difference.  We say everything is God, and you say God is pure.

I think I have already replied to this misconception about God in Islam in my previous post. We also believe that everything is from God, good or bad. No difference uptill here.

As I have said, it needs a big explanation.  Its not that 'they didn't find it attractive' etc.,.  They were not allowed to read them by the Brahmins.  That is what everyone talks about.  The Exploitation.

Therefore Brahmins of older time, from 3200 bc to this time are responsible for subjugating there own people. So when you tell this to present day Brahmins, what's there reaction to it? Shouldn't they offer a public apology for this atrocity. World knew atrocities of Hitler (for let us say 15 to 20 years) or saddam's atrocities for say 20 years, what should they say about the atrocities of Brahmins of 5000 years? For the last 5000 years, they successfully been able to hide these scriptures from the laity, but how? Weren't the kings there who could have provided the needed justice to them? Not only one such king arose in a 5000 years of history which included many non hindu (such as muslims etc) kings as well?  Either its a biggest joke I am hearing from my friend or it is indeed the new discovery of the truth. I think you are on the right track and you are indeed showing in a new era, a new begining of hindu history. What do you plan to name it? I mean any name after kali yagv etc.  

I really don't know how many wrote them, but I hope I will find it soon.

Yap!. That is one very important question and one should not let it go away. Without references, faith doesn't become full. It always haunts us back till we get satisfied that all we read is genuine and authentic. Especially, with the kind of exploitation of 5000 years, who knows what else might have been deliberately been corrupted in the process of transmissions after all no one knows where the original has gone.

As I have said, some believe they were given by Brahma(Khaaliq) and some believe that they were passed down by the word of mouth.

What do you mean by "some believe this and some believe that"? Shouldn't the scripture provides the name all by itself? I have read that there are volumes of volumes of near thousands of books comprise these scriptures but you imply that none carry this small but the most important information. Why people should make conjectures about it?

Well, take for example, you say that Quran was said by Allah.  How did He say it?  Ok, lets assume that Quran was said by Allah, then who wrote it?  Did Allah himself write it?

Good example, my brother, indeed Quran is a good examples for all those who has wisdom and knowldge to understand it. Quran is a revealed guidance (word of God) from Allah to our beloved Prophet Mohammad. It was revealed over a period of about 23 years and gradually brought in by angel Gaberial to Prophet Mohammad. Since  God chose Prophet Mohammad as a messanger for all mankind, therefore this message is for all humans and not just for muslims. So we exactly know the author of Quran and who brought it to humans and from among the humans. There is no doubt or conjectures about it. Its protection from any adulteration or changes are assured by Allah Himself and the verses are there within the scripture that we read it. We don't need any other revelation from Allah to provide us clues about it as this Quran itself testify the completion of relegion by Allah for all times to come i.e. till the day of judgement. May Allah forgive me if you find me boasting about Quran, but brother, I found this to be true and this is from where I found strength in my faith.

Strange indeed.  Everything is not assumed to be preserved.  It is known to be preserved.  And I have said that they were written on leaves.  Which were finally compiled by Veda Vyas.

I hope you would like to distinguish between "assumed" and "known" through logical evdience and not based on heresy despite several scriptural variations you have already alluded in your past postings. Again, the writtings of an anonymous writter can't provide any authenticity to them what to talk about single handed compilation by someone.   

Can I know the name of your great great great grandfather?

Of course, yes, you should ask, and not only to my great great great great grandfather but much beyond where the first human being was created by Allah. Prophet Adam is my first ancestor sent down to this earth. The Quran tells us. No ambiguity and no conjecture. However, I do notice your line of reasoning for this question. In this regard, suffice is to say that during the time of its revelation, it was not only being memorised by the followers of Prophet Mohammad but was also written down as well right then and there. There is no ambiguity and no conjectures about it. Even now, not only me, anyone can verify its preservation, word by word, in its original language i.e. Arabic. Certainly you would not find a difference between any two copies of it, may they are from any part of the world. It is this preservation that I am talking about. It is this authenticity that strengthens my faith in Islam.

Vedas are like, I discovered a Truth which I pass on to my children.  They inturn pass it to their children.

What if a person had no children? Also I have heard that (I am not very sure) that early hindu Sadduos don't used to get married. If this is true then whole story of verbal transmission falls apart as then from where their children would come? So where did that part of scripture might have gone? Lost for ever?? who knows and how to confirm? No body knows how many pages or books that scripture should have from the original then how would anyone know how many were deficient in it. Of course you would have thousands of answers to this question, but I would simple ask for the evidence since this methodology of perservation is not flawless.  

Islam is not a herediatary relegion. It is for all those who needs to find truth. No particular caste, creed or color is responsible to take care of it. Only Allah has taken this responsibility. My observation can be my own personal one, but since I assume Quran may not be very far off from your reach, you can also verify the same at any time at your own convinence. The verses in the very first chapter testify its originality and authenticity.

Yeah, you may say so.  Its not like praying.  But its like admiring.  Some admire Krishna.  And they feel that Krishna will take care of them.  Some other admire Siva, and feel that Siva will take of them.  This admiration turns into praying and worshipping. This prayer is even for attaining the Salvation.

But question arises who is right and who is wrong? The scripture should provide the answer as these were supposed to be the source of guidance. As there is only one who is absolute then there must be only one absolute truth about praying to Him as well. Not all can be true at the same time otherwise there conflicting personality may clash and some times even contradict with each other resulting into fierce battles even among the gods. Also, due to long (5000 years) of exploitation by Brahmins, how did people living in these times used to find the truth? Of course only what the Brahmins (the exploiters) used to tell them what to believe and what not to believe. Isn't it? So, the story of hundred gods doesn't seem to fit the beautiful philosophy of only one absolute, the Brahman or Allah.

I was saying if at all a caste system exist then it is true.  I mean to say that caste system does not exists as the way it is propagated by the pseudo-secularists.

Probably, I may like to correct you after our this long discussion that the correct term here would be "Brahmins" and not "the pseudo-scularists". 

Buddy Ahmed, as I have said,  compared to our long history, this 3000 years is very less.  And how can you say that this could be from "present modern day enlightment".

Probably now I don't need to explain "how I say that this could be from "present modern day enlightment" " since we already discussed this part that for the last 5000 years it was the exploitation of the Brahmins that didn't let the laities come near there own scriptures. However, once these people got their freedom and knowlegde couldn't be preserved any more through traditional way, the society needed to correct itself for its own existance. No one from the outside world wants to make business with them (the exploiters) where, just for an example, the widow was dramatized to burn herself with her dead husband. Also, the human rights people played their role as well. It is then, that they are now realizing to open up their scriptures only to find what has been done in the past with them. I am not trying to be sarcastic over here about hinduism, but trying to make an over view of this changing environment. At this moment, I would rather suggest you, who is indeed a truth seeker, to be very carefull in adopting any position on basis of the puddle of scriptures that had been kept secret from others for all long 5000 years. Authenticity is the key to survive and arrive at a logically correct position.

No, such things are localised.  People of a certain locality are divided.  I can go anywhere in the country

I really appreciate this change in environment. All my good wishes are with you guys over there.

90% are ignorant of their scriptures.  But 90% does not follow caste system.  Its the thing of the past.  Everyone is harmless as you and I are.

I believe you brother. Now atleast I have reference for this knowledge though it be through a psuedu name.

Guess? LOL.  Krishna was raised a cattle grazer.  Valmiki(who wrote Ramayana) was a robber who was taught about Vedas by a Brahmin etc. What about Dwaraka(Capital of Krishna's Kingdom)?  What about Saraswati River in Pakistan which was said to be a myth?  What about Adam's Bridge between India and Sri Lanka?  Even these are a tip of an ice berg.

 Of course by now we would be able to distinguish between myths associated with certain objects through medivial stories and historically sound evidences. I don't intend to negate any of your examples, and leave it to your own judgement how you take them. The myths can easily be turned into history through verbal transmissions and of course is extremely difficult to validate. Secondly, the historical evidences may still be existance, however, need to validate is the story attributed to them and these objects all by themselves. For example, if I tell some one that this bridge on this river was built by such an such emperor only and only for his beloved wife. Then you can validate my statement, as a first level, if this bridge is really that old? If yes, then on the second level, did that emperor really rule over during that period of time over that place. These are the material evidences that can be validated,  however, this doesn't mean that my whole statement is true. I have yet to provide the evidence that the emperor, in fact, built that bridge only and only for his beloved wife and not for any other imaginably possible purpose. It is this evidence that we should look from these writings.

Aha, there was no limit set for human capabilities.  Generally, Brahmins(priests) had a good understanding of everything.  Kshatriyas(warriors) had a good built body.  Vysyas were good at bussiness.  Shudras were good at agriculture etc....

Big assumptions, my brother really big ones. Don't get into their trap. Think logically from your own general observation and not through the monocule of a Brahmin. The lesson which these Brahmins wanted people to learn and learn all through their generations. Now, at least we know this is not true. Any shudra has equal brain as any Brahmin. Any shudra can be taught to fight and fight well as compared to any other person in the other castes.  

 

But still their was no compulsion what so ever.  Everyone was given a certain work according to their interest which is called swadharma.  First swadharma was assigned according to the time of birth.  The time of birth is unique.

Two question here. First who assigned these tasks to whom? Secondly what is the concept of time of birth and its relation to the type of work he needs to do in his life on this earth? Don't know anything about it. Help needed.

Yes, this is also strange.  But amendments are made not in the Scriptures but in the practices

But my question remains unansewered. How are you going to tell people what is right and what is wrong? Probably it is this scripture that enlightened you and freed you from the exploitation of the Brahmins and now again you are allowing amendments without evidences from the scriptures. Aren't you threatened by similar subjugation or oppression by another class on to by some other group of people. Am I missing something here? Are you hinting at some new scriptures coming up from some divine source for these amendments in the previous ones or what? Or you intend to say that the future economic events would determine the social habbits of the people to forcefully change their old ones even though these may be against their scriptues. Yes, I can agree to this, but then there would be no knowledgable hindus left. Simply because their knowldge would be useless to the people and they themselves would feel this knowledge as redundant (without any purpose). Then superstition would grow with much leaps and bounds than hindu history has ever witnessed. Finally the the 10% knowledgable hindus will decline to negligible. I am not trying to be critical about your scriptures but about your ideas of amendments without scriptural support. 

Don't worry buddy, amendments are only made to live a better life.

Of course its not my worry. But who defines what is a better life? The absolute one or the humans? Human amendments to rule over other humans always remained the basic premise of all scriptural changes you find in the history of relegions, simply because these were established on conjectures. Little more or less, they reasoned it out, would not make any significant difference in the overall theme of these relegions. Hence got corrupted over the passage of time.

And no one will amend our Vedas etc. for they are the truth.  And you definitely don't understand about the amendments.

 Of course I don't understand what amendments are you talking about and in which doctrine or scripture you are suggesting these amendments. Need you to elaborate a bit on it if its not too difficult to make me understand.

By Highest I mean Salvation.  But I want to know what are the attributes of Allah.

Brother here is the link for the 99 names of Allah (the attributes) http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/99names.htm

Our ancestors had been asking us to be brave.  In 'hinduism' God is  not considered to be a punisher.

I wish you would have quoted something that Brahman has mentioned himself rather than ancestrol quotes.

But we believe in Karma.  Karma means Law of Causality.  We do not say that God will punish if we do anything bad.  We say that Karma will take care of it.  It means Action-Reaction, Cause-Effect.  Karma is not diety etc.  It is a Law.  The Law of Maya.  If we do good we get good and vice versa.

Your philosophy, from the your quoted website, says that everything is created by the Brahman. Then how do you say karma is not a law enacted by Brahman (you say that God is not considered to be the punisher)? Then from where the mercy comes in if action reaction is the only outcome? and similarly what about the concept of repentance to Brahman? You think He would never forgive even if you sincerely beg pardon?

.....  I don't say that we don't pray to different dieties.  I say that though we pray to multiplicity, we believe in One.

Do you intend to be hypocrate in your explanation that though you believe in one Absolute but then you forget about him in your prayers? This is again a strange view. Does your scriptures support this or this an established practice from centuries without scriptural basis?

....  Muslims believe that animals can see or hear the dead.

Oh, really? But I never heard that and from where they got this information? It is simply a superstition and has no basis from Islam. Need references....As I said, the dead are dead in their graves. They don't move an inch from here or there untill the day of judgement. Their souls goes back to Allah and they don't wander here and there on this earth. Secondly there is no evidence of (atleast not in my knowldge) that any animal has seen these souls. Even if they do, how would these animal tell us what they have seen? All extrapolational theories and nothing else.

Similarly, humans can go from one dimension to another to contact the dead ones through meditation.

Oh, I see what you meant by amendments etc? Hmm.. So this is your divine source. Isn't it or its something other than this also. So you mean to say that there are, in present day as well as in the past, certain hindu meditators who can get the divine truth by visiting these places in their meditation. I need more info from you. Kindly explain this phenomenan or refer me to some website for this.

 

Its thru meditation that Prophet meet the Angel.

Well, if you are refereing to Prophet Mohammad, then no that is not true. Though, Prophet Mohammad did have his first encounter with angel Gabrial once he went to a cave for meditation (you call it), but not there after. The revelations for Quran used to come to Prophet Mohammad through angel Gabrial even when he used to be in his normal routine of work. These were never limited by the meditation only. Islam doesn't encourge a "saintly" life, yet it emphasizes to remember Allah in all our day to day life events and especially in our lone hours in the night. This doesn't mean to attract or gain any supernatural powers out of it but to strengthen our faith in Him and Him alone. Some people (like sufism in Islam) does stretch this particular aspect of Islam beyond its context and I always take it as an extrapolative philosophy. 

By the end of this decade, Sanskrit will be made the National Language of India.  So atleast the next generation will understand what is in our Scriptures.  And there are many scholars who know exactly what is written in our Texts.  Hope they will explain them to the next generation.

Very ambitious plans though I pray to Allah that He shall provide guidance to everyone of us. Amen.

Edited by AhmadJoyia

Hello my Friends!

Its clear that you don't want to understand about 'hinduism'.  I don't bother about it.  This is not a 'hindu' forum anyway.  And you are free to say anything about 'hinduism'.  But truth remains the same.  If not now, some day, the world will know what 'hinduism' really is.

You have a lot of prejudices about 'hinduism'.  Not only you, even 'hindus' have some prejudices about their religion.

I had been answering everything you ask.  But you still keep asking the same questions all the time.  Its not at all bad to question.  But I feel that you are always trying to prove me wrong quoting something which is irrelevant.

I had been defensive all the time.  But from now, I will not defend as their is no point in defending my religion.  It has been great throughout its history and it is still great.

Coming to answering,

Ahmed bhai and Fuhad bhai, we will continue our discussion.

Shams and Tasneem, have a nice time hating 'hinduism'.

Peace and Love.

Hello Ahmad!!!

For time being lets forget about the concept of Brahman.  Its a very difficult concept to explain and I was not able to explain it correctly.  Thats why you were saying that we are finite.  Its just like a loop.  We have to look inwards.

I would post a whole post only on Brahman.  I would try to explain in the best way I can.

By the way, did you see the movie "The Matrix" and their sequels?

They were directed by Jews and they are based on 'hindu' philosophy.  If you can understand all the three movies, its easy to understand our philosophy.  But I think you hold prejudices against Jews and 'hindus'(this may be one of the reasons you find it difficult to understand 'hinduism').


I would like to first know the authenticity of Quran.  How can you say that Mohammad is the Prophet sent by God?  Dont say that it is written in Quran. 

What is the proof that Quran is the word of God?

Someone said it so we are following, is a lame excuse.  Isn't it?

The thing is, it is the matter of faith or belief, not a matter of fact.  Right?

Now the moderators may blast me, but these are similar to the questions I encounter.

If you can answer my questions, then I will be most pleased.   Only good people understand it is a lame answer.

Coming to our discussion.

AhmadJoyia wrote: However, He also created the "Free Will" among some of His creatures. Like humans or jinns etc to choose from right or wrong.

"Free Will" is a wonderful concept.  We will get back to that afterwards.

Similarly, He permitted Satan to do whatever he likes to spread mischief on this earthly life but for a specific and limited time only called the day of judgement.

We don't have a concept of satan.  We don't have the a concept like a 'judgement day'.  We have a concept of Pralaya.  But then God or anyone do not judge us.  Pralaya is a different concept.

On this day every living being who got died shall be raised again to account for his/her deeds.

For us Brahman does not take care of our deeds(I will explain it later).  It is the work of Karma(Law of Causality).

However, Allah sent His guidance to the mankind through His Prophets to guide them to identify the satan and not to get deviated through his traps of lurement.

I would try to explain about why Prophets descend.  If you can understand the concept of Brahman, it will be easy to understand everything else.

He simply said "be" and everything got created on this command. That is it.

I cannot buy this idea.  There is a purpose for everything.  How could a perfect being create an unperfect world?

Considering this, I find the concept of Brahman more subtle.

In my view, no philosophical explanations are required as they all correspond to human conjectures which would ultimately remain conjectures and who would like to put his whole life on conjectures?

Damn right.  But you are negating what you said by this sentence "I beleive in reality and facts define my life, there is very little room for conjectures so we always try to avoid conjectures that are based on absolutely no knowledge other than human extrapolational philosophies.

I too believe in reality and facts.  When I was a little boy, I was an agnostic.  Then in my teens I was a perfect atheist.  I never believed in the existence of God or any higher being whatsoever.  I was as far away to 'hinduism' as I was to Islam or Christianity.  I seldom go to a temple.  And even if I happen to go, I go for peace.

But then, I started intropection.  I found out the facts(not the scientific facts kind of things, because science is filled with assumptions and opinions).  I found out that the difference between me and others is just appearance.  But deep down we are all one.  I have done that through meditation.  And found out that I was a 'hindu' not because of my birth, but because I follow the Philosophy.  It suits me the best. 
Its best for my psyche.

Can I ask you one question?(please don't be offended).

You don't definitely know that Prophet was contacted by Allah.  You base this 'fact' on Quran.  And you definitely cannot prove that Quran is the work of God(or Allah).  Quran, for that matter, any other Scripture exists only as a book.  You believe Quran because you believe Quran.  But its for us to discover everything.  Isn't it?  People see a thing the way they want to see it.  Cogito ergo sum. 

This is what 'hinduism' is.  Discovering everything ourselves.  All the ills in 'hinduism' are superficial.

But you said Brahma is the creator. Isn't it? How could a projected being (creation) can be the creator of himself?

Thats what I say, if you understand Brahman, it will be easy to understand why we call Brahma creator.  For the time being, assume that Brahman created Brahma with special powers to create everything.(though its just an allusion, I will explain it afterwards)

why do you find it necessary to pray to Brahma? and why not to the Brahman who is the absolute where as you say Brahma is just like you? Why intermediaries are required that too you yourself say are bounded and limited?

 Because as I have said, it is not easy to discover ourselves or God.  We consider him as Guru(preceptor) who guides us.

So how could a "finite" being know about "infinite" more than any other "finite" beings that too, on such a large order of magnitude that finite being becomes the worthy of human worship?

To be frank, the difference I find among the Prophet, Jesus, Krishna, Buddha etc. is nothing.  You may say that the Prophet was sent by Allah.  What is the proof?  Its the matter of faith, its not the matter of fact.  Right?

You will now blast me saying that, I am blah blah blah.

And the only difference I find between Krishna and me is higher level of energy in Krishna(you definitely cannot understand this).  He can do miracles.  But I need time to get to that level.

You may ask 'what is this higher level of energy?', well I cannot bear when I am burried alive or when I am immolated.  But people with higher levels of energy, can do this.  Swami Vivekananda was buried alive.  It is called Jiva Samadhi.  Its just like Sati.  I definitely cannot imagine doing such a thing.  You may say that this is suicide.  If you say that this is suicide, then I cannot say anything else about it.

We, the muslims only ask help directly from the Brahman or Allah only. No intermediaries. Prophets came to humans for only and only this purpose. They never themselves were worthy of worship. Yes, they helped us to know about  Allah, but categorically told to pray only and only to Allah alone as He is the all listener and all hearer. he is closer to everyone more than anything else. Only one has to approach Him to ask for help and He listens to it, always.

Without explaining the concept of Brahman,  I cannot prove anything else.

So everyone out of them and getting born again (according to your philosophy) should have been the ultimate knowledgeable about truth in his rest of the lives. Yet we see almost 90% of ignorable population.

The knowledgeable ones are not always born. 

I cannot prove this now. 

"90% of ignorable population", its offensive.  Did Allah give you the right to say a person 'ka***'?

A non-believer is as much a human as we are.  The only difference being we believe.  In future a non-believer will also believe.  So its the matter of time.  And we know that time does not exist for Allah.

By the way, who is "It is said" usually refered to in your statements? I am not clear on this and like you to reply.

Our ancestors.  I don't know their names.

Anyhow, according to our belief, all dead are dead till the time they are resurrected on the day of Judgement. Before that day, since their examination on this earth is complete, they are awaiting result in their graves.

Why should they be examined?  Its like, I write a C program, I myself find the mistakes in it and clear all the bugs and then discard the program.

So you say that one man is born rich and another poor, one man is born healthy and another handicapped only because Allah wants them to be so?

So why need angels for help if the ancestors are there to do the same?

Actually, angels are ancestors and vice versa.

Yes, I do know death is only for the body, however, its only this body which is considered alive in this world. In this world, no one calls souls to be alive either. Death is a transformation (in Islam its only for one time for all living beings) from this present world to the life hereafter.

Yes, what we see is the body.  Thats why feel we are finite.  Actually we are infinite beings in finite bodies.  Didn't you hear about Lance Armstrong?  He had cancer, yet he is the fastest cyclist.  Didn't you hear about magicians like David Copperfield and David Blaine?  What about Edison, Einstien etc.  Its all in what we believe dear.  If we believe we can do anything, we can do anything.  You may say that this is the work of Allah.  Remember, whatever you say is right for you.

Everything is possible.

and who is this Dr. hineman and how do you believe him (or how is he  considered to be qualified to) to say what he says about the life hereafter? Do you regard him a prophet, an angel or what?

Dr. Hineman is the one who did extensive work in Parapsychology.  Its not that I believe in him, it is as if saying that I believe in myself, believe in what my ancestors said.

The question is reflexive.  How do you believe in the Prophet?  You did not meet him(did you?).

I don't consider him a prophet.  But as I have already said, no difference between anyone.

Oh, no? What do you mean by this? I thought you implied Brahma was an angel......So, do you mean Brahma was a human being who lived on this very earth as any other human lived on and who, after death, became one of the helpers of humans on this earth like angels or etc?

First of all, by angel I mean a good soul
And I say he is our ancestor because from him some other ancestors are born.

If that be the case then who decides who can help and who can't help the humans after their death. I mean, who regulates the mangement of this large pool of ancestoral helpers?

We ourselves.  Consider them just like Mother Teresa etc.

I see that... However, how do you substantiate your guess that it only started in Kali Yuga and not before?

I have already proved by saying about Krishna, Valmiki etc.  Consider Karna, he was raised by a chariot rider but made was King by his friend Duryodhana.  Though Karna is a cousin of Duryodhana, no one knows about it when he is given the throne(even Karna himself doesn't know it).  Well, there are so many other examples.

But just for minor correction, 3200 BC means around 5000 years from now and not 3000 years, but ofcourse, as you said is very small as compared with millinnia history.

I rightly said around 3000 years.  The 'exploitation' did not start the day when the Kali Yuga started.  As you can see, the firt opposition over the exploitation came from Buddha who lived around 500 BC.  And the opposition came from a Kshatriya who is consider higher 'caste'.

However, as far modern history and its dating is concerned this is about the total history that historians in the world know of. From this perspective this exploitation is right from the origin of their historical knowledge. So you can't blame them who are ignorant of your millinnia history claim.

Thats a good question.  But its not modern history.  According to modern history man existed since millions of years.  According to the Christian historians, everything started around 4000 BC.  So they had to cram everything in this little time frame.

So the perspective does not exist.

But the movie that I saw, showed both of them at the same time togather (assuming that you are referring the same Kirshna and Rama who went to fight against lankan king). Anyhow, I definitely believe you more than my flimsy understanding from an entertainment movie.

Lets keep the movies aside.  Krishna's brother is not Rama but Balarama.  And please, Krishna was born a long time after Rama and Krishna has no link with Lanka.

They are Itihasas(history) and cannot be changed.

I am curious to know where did you see that movie.  Are you Indian?

But how is he considered to be reincarnation of Rama and what are its implications for such beliefs?

I don't want to explain why Krishna is considered reincarnation of Rama.  I will explain it, may be later.

and all the more what is the concept of reincarnation? I didn't find it in the web site that you referred me or I may be missing it some how.

We take many births until we get perfection.  This aspect is clearly explained in the website i referred.  Just go thru(if you want).

Yes, but how much of Truth? we muslims don't know of it.

The truth that everything is Brahman(or Allah).  Its easy to say that everything is Brahman.  But its not easy to believe it.  Some people think that they believe.  If they believe they would not find anything to be problem.(it takes time to understand)

As we never try to extrapolate from our limited knowledge to explain "infinity" with the help of "finite" creatures.

Why do you consider yourself to be finite?

Helping us in what sense? We muslims don't consider that they respond to our prayers or worship other than what Allah commands them to do for us. So all our prayers are from Allah and Allah alone and not to these creatures. By themselves they they have no power what so ever.

Helping us to know the Truth.

You mean people deliberately nagate their scriptures and yet they think it is worth it? This is indeed a strange logic.

Who said people negate their scriptures?

Yes, I saw that but I wished you would have implored this "absolute' in your quotes more than from any humanistic traditions. Do you have any thing in the Vedas a direct quotes from this "absolute" or they are all full of human philosophies?

Direct quote from the "absolute".LOL.  I am now convinced that the concept of Allah is different from Brahman.

But one question, is it real that Allah said or wrote Quran?  Or do you believe Allah did it?  Can you prove your point?

Brother, is it an incident or a story, a folk lure story? If its an actual incident then I have a lot of question about it. About its authenticity, its nature and origin and all the more about its scientific validation. However if its a kind of moral story people usually narrate to make people understand a concept rather than its circumstantial details then I have no more questions and I can llisten to it without any reservations about it. But I then don't expect these kind of stuff in your Vedas. Kindly do provide your brief explanation on it. Also, kindly do fill in the blanks for "--" in your story.

Its an actual incident my friend.  It is not written in Vedas.  It is Itihasa(history).  And "--" signifies a pause.  As I have said science is just opinion.  And the question is reflexive.  'authenticity, nature, origin.............'

Peace and Love

Edited by bharatiya